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air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg

 
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

Yesterday was supposed to be my final fuel flow test before taking to the
air again. I have recently installed a fuel return line in my 912 system
and also a fuel pressure gauge. The a/c is a Kitfox tri-gear, so high-wing
with tanks in each wing and a header tank located behind the seats. The
fuel flow test was performed on the ground with the aircraft in "take-off"
attitude with tail on the ground (approx 17 degrees).

Previous tests showed 100 l/hr (26 gal/hr) at the exit of the electrical
fuel pump and before the mechanical pump. This time, to be more realistic,
I measured the fuel flow after the mechanical fuel pump, at the entry of the
4-way junction that goes the carbs and to the fuel return line. In 18
minutes, the pump put out 18 litres, so 60 l/hr (16 gal/hr), which is still
acceptable, though 40% lower than the first measurement. But then,
something strange happened: the fuel flow went down dramatically, to approx.
20 l/hr (just over 5 gal/hr). I checked the gascolator and found it to be
clean.

A further investigation revealed that the fuel that was being pushed out
contained some air bubbles, which to me means that air must be entering the
fuel circuit on the suction side of the electrical pump. Or else the
electrical fuel pump is somehow broken and is letting air in. A further
data point is that if I hook up all the hoses and run the electrical fuel
pump the fuel pressure gauge indicates lower than usual pressure (0.25 bar
instead of 0.45 bar).

So before I go and investigate the suction side of the fuel system I'd like
to ask any experts out there:

1) Is it possible that I damaged the electrical fuel pump by letting it run
continuously for 20 minutes?
2) Is anyone aware of such failure modes for the Pierburg electrical fuel
pump?
3) How would you go about investigating the suction side of the fuel
system? My idea was to disconnect the hose at the exit of the fuel pump
and clamp it closed and then pressurize the circuit between the header tank
and the exit of the electrical fuel pump with an airline and search for
bubbles using soap water.

Thanks in advance for any help... the weather is beautiful flying weather
but I'm grounded until I can sort this out SadSadSad

Sacha


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Sacha- I can think of a couple of things to check before blaming the pump. First, are the tanks vented? Are the vents functioning? Second, make sure that there isn't something blocking the fuel intake. I had this problem once on a new piece of equipment with a diesel engine. It would sit and run at full throttle for hours, but if it went down the street it would suck air, and shut the engine down. It drove us nuts for a while, until we pulled the fuel tank and found a 1" square piece of masking tape drifting around in the fuel. When it sloshed over to the sucker tube, it blocked it and shut down the engine. Air in the fuel always makes me think of that. We found it by pulling the plug at the bottom and trying to drain it. The fuel would stop running. Poke a wire in there, and it would run again. It was invisible when soaked with fuel. We had to pull the tank to get it out. The tape had been used to cover all openings when shipped from one
factory to another, and a piece dropped in when the manufacturer pulled it off.

Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 6/22/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, June 22, 2014, 3:56 AM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Yesterday was supposed to be my final fuel flow test before
taking to the
air again.  I have recently installed a fuel return
line in my 912 system
and also a fuel pressure gauge. The a/c is a Kitfox
tri-gear, so high-wing
with tanks in each wing and a header tank located behind the
seats. ----

A further investigation revealed that the fuel that was
being pushed out
contained some air bubbles, which to me means that air must
be entering the
fuel circuit on the suction side of the electrical
pump. 


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ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Hi! Sacha,
Have you checked the thimble filter in the Pierburg electrical pump? It
needs a very sharp needle or pointed hooked instrument but only apply it to
the plastic collar and be careful replacing it with a wooden very blunt
pencil pushed home in to place very carefully, do not damage the gauze
filter element because they will NOT supply a replacement .....it would need
an entirely new pump.
Regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG c/w 914 Rotax and two electric fuel pumps.

--


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jun 22, 2014, at 14:26, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:

First, are the tanks vented? Are the vents functioning? Second, make sure that there isn't something blocking the fuel intake.

Thanks Bill. I've been away from the hangar (and email) for a few days but I will check it this week.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Bob thank you. I will check it this week. Hopefully I don't need a new pump....

Quote:
On Jun 22, 2014, at 19:52, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

Have you checked the thimble filter in the Pierburg electrical pump?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Hi Bill,
I took the header tank off today, emptied and cleaned it. It had some
silicon gasket material left over from when I installed the fuel level
sender. Occasionally bits would float around and block the exit orifice and
cause fuel flow to slow down substantially, exactly as you described. I
expect things will go back to normal as soon as I re-mount the tank.
Thanks again for the help!
Regards,
Sacha
--


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Sacha- nice find. I have also had trouble with Teflon tape. If you overlap the end of a fitting, it will tear off and clog a filter. Good luck.
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/24/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 11:16 AM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

Hi Bill,
I took the header tank off today, emptied and cleaned
it.  It had some
silicon gasket material left over from when I installed the
fuel level
sender.  Occasionally bits would float around and block
the exit orifice and
cause fuel flow to slow down substantially, exactly as you
described.  I
expect things will go back to normal as soon as I re-mount
the tank.
Thanks again for the help!
Regards,
Sacha


--


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Silicone seal/products don't get along well with gasoline.
They are not fuel resistant and will cause many fuel related
problems.

john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon

--


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Yes indeed. I should have just mounted the sender with the cork gasket that came with it.

Quote:
On Jun 24, 2014, at 19:02, "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Silicone seal/products don't get along well with gasoline.
They are not fuel resistant and will cause many fuel related
problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:26 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Sacha- Never use any of the RTV sealants with a cork/rubber gasket. The RTV will cause the gasket to crumble later on. I think the solvent in the RTV dissolves the latex.

Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/24/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 3:17 PM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

Yes indeed. I should have just mounted the sender with the
cork gasket that came with it.

> On Jun 24, 2014, at 19:02, "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
>
> Silicone seal/products don't get along well with
gasoline.
> They are not fuel resistant and will cause many fuel
related
> problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Bill
Thank you. I'm not sure what RTV is. I used some red stuff which I thought was for engine gaskets. I think Motorsil was the brand. Anyway just to be sure I'll remove it as it serves no useful purpose.
Sacha

Quote:
On Jun 25, 2014, at 15:26, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:



Sacha- Never use any of the RTV sealants with a cork/rubber gasket. The RTV will cause the gasket to crumble later on. I think the solvent in the RTV dissolves the latex.

Bill Sullivan
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/24/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 3:17 PM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

Yes indeed. I should have just mounted the sender with the
cork gasket that came with it.

>> On Jun 24, 2014, at 19:02, "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> Silicone seal/products don't get along well with
gasoline.
> They are not fuel resistant and will cause many fuel
related
> problems.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:43 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

RTV stands for "Room Temperature Vulcanizing". Comes in a tube, and has at least 3 colors- blue, red, and black, indicating useful temperature, and whether or not it cures in the presence of air, or the absence of it. It is designed to take the place of gaskets, or to skim coat paper ones. Works great, except on the cork gaskets. You can find it at an auto parts store.
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 6/25/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com" <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2014, 12:40 PM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

Bill
Thank you. I'm not sure what RTV is. I used some red stuff
which I thought was for engine gaskets. I think Motorsil was
the brand. Anyway just to be sure I'll remove it as it
serves no useful purpose.
Sacha

> On Jun 25, 2014, at 15:26, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
wrote:
>
>
sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>
>
>  Sacha- Never use any of the RTV sealants with a
cork/rubber gasket.  The RTV will cause the gasket to
crumble later on.  I think the solvent in the RTV
dissolves the latex. 
>
>               
               
            Bill Sullivan
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 6/24/14, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: air entering fuel
system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump
broken?
> To: "rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com"
<rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 3:17 PM
>
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
>
> Yes indeed. I should have just mounted the sender with
the
> cork gasket that came with it.
>
>>> On Jun 24, 2014, at 19:02, "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Silicone seal/products don't get along well with
> gasoline.
>> They are not fuel resistant and will cause many
fuel
> related
>> problems.
>
>
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
>    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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>           
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> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:11 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

RTV stands for "Room Temperature Vulcanizing". Comes in a
tube, and has at least 3 colors- blue, red, and black,
indicating useful temperature, and whether or not it cures
in the presence of air, or the absence of it. It is
designed to take the place of gaskets, or to skim coat paper
ones. Works great, except on the cork gaskets. You can
find it at an auto parts store.
--------------------------------------------


Bill S:

Are all RTV sealants fuel safe?

Are they to be confused with silicone seal?

john h
Rock House, Oregon


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Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:37 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

John- I know that one is fuel resistant- red, I think. Pretty sure it's silicone seal. My experience is very limited, so I only remember some of the cautions with the stuff. I had a friend who bought a used Cadillac with a freshly rebuilt motor. The cork oil pan gasket dissolved, and cost him an engine rebuild.
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/26/14, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2014, 10:10 AM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>




  RTV stands for "Room Temperature Vulcanizing". 
Comes in a
tube, and has at least 3 colors- blue, red, and black,
indicating useful temperature, and whether or not it cures
in the presence of air, or the absence of it.  It is
designed to take the place of gaskets, or to skim coat
paper
ones.  Works great, except on the cork gaskets. 
You can
find it at an auto parts store.
--------------------------------------------


Bill S:

Are all RTV sealants fuel safe?

Are they to be confused with silicone seal?

john h
Rock House, Oregon



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Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

John- I know that one is fuel resistant- red, I think.
Pretty sure it's silicone seal. My experience is very
limited, so I only remember some of the cautions with the
stuff. I had a friend who bought a used Cadillac with a
freshly rebuilt motor. The cork oil pan gasket dissolved,
and cost him an engine rebuild.
--------------------------------------------


Bill S:

Back in 1987, silicone seal caused a low power situation
that put me into the Sebring High School football field.
Had used silicone seal to seal the vent hole in the Ken
Brock seat tank filler cap so I could convert to a vent that
exited the bottom of the aircraft and prevent fuel from
dumping inboard should I go upside down on the ground again.
Tiny balls of silicone seal effectively blocked the valves
in the squeeze bulbs we used to use back then.

john h
mkIII
Rock House, OR


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:38 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

I seem to remember that silicone seal (RTV) was being used at automotive factories to replace a lot of gaskets, some time in the 1980's. Worked great for differential covers, etc. The biggest problem I ran into was that we weren't sure where, or what type, to use. Best bet is to bring your glasses to the auto parts store and read all that very tiny print on the packages. Where I worked, the most common type was blue- we called it "Blue Goo". Stunk like hell, and hardened in the tube if it sat around for a while. Maybe Roger or somebody with a lot more practical knowledge can chime in on this. I was in truck equipment, not automotive.
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/26/14, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg electrical pump broken?
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2014, 11:28 AM

--> RotaxEngines-List message
posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>



  John- I know that one is fuel resistant- red, I
think.
Pretty sure it's silicone seal.  My experience is very
limited, so I only remember some of the cautions with the
stuff.  I had a friend who bought a used Cadillac with
a
freshly rebuilt motor.  The cork oil pan gasket
dissolved,
and cost him an engine rebuild.
--------------------------------------------


Bill S:

Back in 1987, silicone seal caused a low power situation
that put me into the Sebring High School football field.
Had used silicone seal to seal the vent hole in the Ken
Brock seat tank filler cap so I could convert to a vent
that
exited the bottom of the aircraft and prevent fuel from
dumping inboard should I go upside down on the ground
again.
Tiny balls of silicone seal effectively blocked the valves
in the squeeze bulbs we used to use back then.

john h
mkIII
Rock House, OR



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

Ok so I got rid of all the silicone sealant and cleaned the cork gasket which seals the VDO sender (it's quite a big gasket with a 40mm diameter hole in the centre and five 5mm holes for the screws around the perimeter).

Well guess what? The cork seal leaks badly. So I'm back to square one, I need to find a way to seal the VDO sender on the top of my header tank. I have some silicone rubber which I thought of cutting to size and using. What do folks think?
Another solution would be to use the same red silicone sealant as I used before but only to apply it on the exterior of the tank. I'm concerned it might eat into the cork though as someone (John?) mentioned.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

I would definitely keep silicon sealant away from any fuel
system.

Your silicone coated cork gasket is trash. Silicone seal
causes the gasket to squeeze out and leak.

You can get several fuel tank sealant cartridges from
Aircraft Spruce that work well. Also cut your own gasket.

john h
Kolb MKIII
Boise, Idaho

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Roger Lee



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pier Reply with quote

Get a new gasket. The buy some Hylomar. This is meant to be used around fuel and will not leak. Do not over use it. I little thin film on each surface will seal just fine.

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Roger Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:05 am    Post subject: air entering fuel system on suction side - or is my Pierburg Reply with quote

I recommend you use HYLOMAR sealant made in the USA under licence and
developed by Rolls Royce Aero Engines for all fuel and oil related joints.
But use it very sparingly and especially as mentioned on the instructions.
I would never make any oil or fuel related joint without it.
Regards
Bob Harrison Rolls Royce Aero Engine trained .Europa G-PTAG Rotax 914
--


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