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Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane

 
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RussHolland



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

With the recent discussion here on antenna location and effectiveness, I have a Nav antenna question for the Rans S-7 I am building. Mounting plates are provided for Comm and ELT, but not Nav. I have looked at the wing tip antennas but there is metal tubing inside the fiberglass trip on the S-7, so I'm not sure they'd work. The Advanced Aircraft Electronics internal antennas such as shown at Aircraft Spruce at www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/antennasystems.php state useability for tube and fabric planes but I haven't found any mounting information. Any experience, thoughts or recommendations would be welcome.

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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

RussHolland wrote:

Quote:
With the recent discussion here on antenna location and
effectiveness, I have a Nav antenna question for the Rans S-7 I am building. Mounting
plates are provided for Comm and ELT, but not Nav.


Most Nav antennas like the V-type "cat whisker" do not need a ground
plane. The are balanced and the two legs provide the effective
counterpoise for the other.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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skywagon(at)charter.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Brian,
I have often wondered if tests have been done for the typical vertical stab.
mounted, V-type VOR antenna to determine if there is any real difference
between a forward facing "V" vs. a rearward facing "V". Most certified
aircraft seem to face them rearward in the streamline view.
Have you or any of the group seen application data concerning this mounting
practice.
David

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Bill Denton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

There's something about this on either the Comant or RAMI web site.

They state that, for best performance, the open end of the "V" should face
forward, i.e. with the tips of the elements facing forward.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Thanks Bill,
I have also heard that many times. I was hoping one of the antenna gurus on
the List might have real data.
For example... it your bird came with the "V" in the streamlined mode, would
it be worth the trouble to get into the vertical stab. and change the mount
for the cat whiskers so that they face forward.
David
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mprather(at)spro.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Seems like it might depend on whether you wanted better reception inbound
to the station, or outbound from it.. Or maybe it's related to RF
interaction with the rest of the airframe.
Regards,

Matt-

[quote]
<bdenton(at)bdenton.com>

There's something about this on either the Comant or RAMI web site.

They state that, for best performance, the open end of the "V" should
face forward, i.e. with the tips of the elements facing forward.


--


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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:38:50 P.M. Central Standard Time,
bdenton(at)bdenton.com writes:

There's something about this on either the Comant or RAMI web site.

They state that, for best performance, the open end of the "V" should face
forward, i.e. with the tips of the elements facing forward.

Better yet, use a set of blades. Less problems with ice and a more even
signal pattern.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


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Jerry Grimmonpre'



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Hi Bob ...
What blades are you thinking of because I'm interested in something compact
and does not mount inside the wingtips. Can they be mounted on the belly of
an RV or must they mount horizontally on the vertical stab? A belly mount
would be easy to wire as well.
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Electrical planning

Do Not Archive

---


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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Good Evening Jerry,

I have Dorne Margolin on my Bonanza, but we have used mostly Comants for the
last few years. I bought a set of Sensor System antennas for number three
son's machine. All of them use an identical footprint and fastener pattern.

The Sensor System antennas have a stainless steel leading edge which we
thought might be advisable for the Beech 18. He operates out of several small
mountain strips, some of which are gravel.

The antennas need to be mounted horizontally. Most commonly they are
installed on the sides of the vertical fin. They need to be in the same plane and
opposite each other.

However, for the V-tails, we generally mount them on the side of the
fuselage below the stabilators and about four inches above the bottom of the
fuselage.

We have done several that way and they work great.

How much room is there on an RV beneath the stabilizer? I would think the
blades would need to be at least ten inches to a foot below a horizontal
surface. You also need some amount of ground plane . As I said, we mount them
about four inches above the bottom of the aft fuselage.

I know of one warbird, a P-40, that had them installed on the fuselage about
a foot below the horizontal stabilizer. The antenna manufacturer said the
reception wouldn't be too hot, but the owner is happy. He didn't want to have
anything that would not look original on the airplane. Figured the blades
mounted down there would not be noticeable. He even painted them the same
camouflage color as the fuselage. Don't know for sure, but I would imagine he used
a paint that would not hurt the reception.

Some folks down in Texas have added blades to their AT-11 under the
stabilizer and they are happy. My number three son is currently having blades
installed on his E18S in the same place . The shop where he is having it done is
also installing a set under the stabilizers of a T-34. It seems to be a very
popular way of eliminating those pesky nav wires. I consulted with our local
electronics guru before my son made the move for his airplane. His opinion
was that being mounted so close to a horizontal surface might reduce the
reception range from a hundred miles down to seventy-five or so, but he said even
that was just a guess.

Since most folks use GPS enroute and only need the VHF navigation signals
for approaches, lack of range does not seem to present a problem. Having the
navigation blades mounted below the stabilizers and painted the same color as
the fuselage does hide them quite well.

Our friends from Texas, with the AT-11, claim the blades mounted under their
stabilizer work at least as well as did the old Rams Horn mounted up on top.

I saw one Bonanza where the blades had been installed just ahead of the
stabilators and only four or five inches below them. The owner complained of
buffeting and unusual control feel at low speeds. Not only that, but they looked
terrible!

Do Not Archive

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


In a message dated 1/12/2006 7:40:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
jerry(at)mc.net writes:

Hi Bob ...
What blades are you thinking of because I'm interested in something compact
and does not mount inside the wingtips. Can they be mounted on the belly of
an RV or must they mount horizontally on the vertical stab? A belly mount
would be easy to wire as well.
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Electrical planning

Do Not Archive


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Good points Matt....
I would still like to see some real test data on the subject.
David
---


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Jerry Grimmonpre'



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

Bob thanks for your reply ... I'll look for them as I begin making my
shopping list.
Regards ...
Jerry
do not archive

---


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Nav antenna on tube and fabric plane Reply with quote

BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote:
They state that, for best performance, the open end of the "V" should face
forward, i.e. with the tips of the elements facing forward.
Better yet, use a set of blades. Less problems with ice and a more even
signal pattern.


Blade and towel-bar type nav antennas expect to work against a good
ground plane. "Cat-whisker" nav antennas are independent of a ground
plane except where the metal mass blanks part of the antenna and
distorts the radiation pattern.

Use a "cat-whisker" antenna for a rag-and-tube or plastic airplane.
Carbon fiber is more like metal but I am not sure how you get a good bond.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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