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ditching a low wing radial

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elmar.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Did anybody ever hear of a successful ditching

a T-28, T-6, YAK or other similar aircraft

without flipping over and no harm caused to

the crew?



cheers



Elmar

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:00 am Post subject: Re: ditching a low wing radial

Several examples on "The Military Channel" of WWII newsreels showing successful ditchings of Grumman Wildcats/Hellcats  that remain upright.

_________________
Milt

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

There was a T-28 that went in the water in Florida this winter it had engine problems and couldn't make the runway I'd say about 500' short it did however flip over but the pilot and passenger got out without injury. It was on the news with video should be able to find it on you-tube.

  

 Bill Wade 



 

   From: Elmar Hegenauer <elmar.h(at)shaw.ca>

To: Yak-List(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 3:36:51 AM

Subject: ditching a low wing radial



--> Yak-List message posted by: Elmar Hegenauer <elmar.h(at)shaw.ca (elmar.h(at)shaw.ca)>

Did anybody ever hear of a successful ditching

a T-28, T-6, YAK or other similar aircraft

without flipping over and no harm caused to

the crew?



cheers



Elmar



 [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Yes, numerous occasions over the years. One very close to your home Elmar 

( no details on the list - call me).

Usually always succesful as long as the gear is UP.



Walt

---

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: ditching a low wing radial

If you look at that T-28 crash it has the gear down and full flaps deployed.....and doesn't make the runway.  Like Wayne Handley told me during my time with him last fall, "you're only as good as you last practice was recent...if you're lucky."  In other words, don't expect to survive an engine failure unless you practice them.  



Doug Sapp offered up several hundred dollars of gas money for people that would go out and practice engine failures with an IP in the back.  There were no takers....amazing.  



I fear we don't rehearse our EP's often enough, either by chair flying, or real flying.  Spot landing a powerless airplane is a fun way to spend a few minutes  of flying....and may just save your life.



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

elmar.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Thank you everyone who has responded

to my posting, very much appreciated.



I live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing

but big rocks, tall conifers and lots of water.

Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian 

roulette.



The other day I had the pleasure to meet a

radial engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who

owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As far as 

I've understood him, I would not have the best 

of chances to survive ditching a CJ due the 

NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy design,

he rather would try to put it down in the trees.



Those are merrymaking and backslapping 

prospects, eh?



cheers



Elmar

andrew(at)nzactive.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 2:22 am Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Hmmm, as a long-time Yak list  lurker whose true home is on the Rocket forum....(but who's a part owner in a Yak 3 in NZ, close to being finished)....



I've had two real no-$%(at)# engine failures. (Carb ice issues - sorted now.) First one, a long time ago now, I was mainly lucky - was pretty inexperienced, but I knew enough to keep my airspeed up, did OK, but thank you Lady Luck. After that I practiced FLWOPs a lot. Second real one was in a very narrow canyon, in the mountains. Managed to slew her onto a river bank with almost no damage to aircraft and none to self. STILL quite a bit of luck - but constant practice allowed me to be in the position to benefit from luck. As one of my warbird CFIs likes to say, "the more I practice, the luckier I get".  I was AMAZED, both times but particularly the first, how my mind just went blank, and I forget nearly everything I'd been trained to do. Panic can really do a number on your training, so it's gotta become AUTOMATIC - which means, as Barry says, constant practice. And, I'd add, an appropriate mindset.



The thing with piston warbirds is that they are reliable - but they're not perfectly, 100% reliable. Engines do quit, for all sorts of reasons. I was shocked, the first time it happened, at how bad my mind was at reminding me what to do. The only thing I knew, cos I "knew it in my bones" - was airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. It was so shocking and frightening - partly cos in both cases serious injury or worse seemed inevitable - that I forgot the stuff I'd been taught about landing with a failed engine. Just clean forgot - only remembered on the ground. Made me realise that the key is to practice over and over again, and again....and again.....so that even in a panic situation, you STILL remember the basics. It is indeed really good for one's general flying skills, albeit that it requires careful engine handling. It's also worth remembering - and practicing for - the fact that flying in inhospitable terrain may mean getting the aircraft into a spot which isn't big enough for an actual landing. In general, whatever one is flying into, if it's flattish, and one has zero rate of descent and minimum airspeed on touchdown, it'll generally be survivable. (Not sure if that applies to trees though!)



Ditching? An important issue. Water is WAY harder than I used to think. (Trust me on that  Ditching a heavy warbird, actually any aircraft, is a big deal. Worth really thinking about, and planning, again so it becomes automatic, so when the real thing happens, and the white noise takes over one's brain, it's still possible to get it more or less right. A lot of aircraft do turn turtle, although a retractable has a good chance of staying right way up. (Will still be a big deceleration though, which can cause all sorts of injuries - another reason to use a helmet.) I won't try and issue a lecture on how to ditch - there are many people who know a lot more than me - but again, practice and mindset, I reckon, is crucial.



I fly over Cook Strait, in New Zealand, every week or so. Often I take the direct route, which means quite a while over the sea. In the spirit of "I'd rather be over-prepared than feel very silly", I always wear a life jacket, take a raft and flares, have a knife in my pocket to cut straps etc and (this is an easy step which could make a huge difference), a canopy-breaking tool, and always have a tiny "pony bottle" in the leg pocket of my flight suit. It's a small scuba bottle that gives me about 20 breaths if I need it. (eg, getting out of an upside down aircraft that's full of water, possibly while injured.) It's standard issue for most military flight crews flying over water, and I figure the aircraft doesn't know if it's ditching with a military pilot or a civvie  I'd do the same if I was flying over Lake Michigan, or whatever...



And, for what it's worth, Elmar, I'd NEVER take the trees over water. Unless they are remarkably small trees, or have clearings in them. Flying in inhospitable terrain can mean some very difficult choices if the fan goes quiet - but trees are, in general, kind of the very worst place one could force-land, I think. There are a number of problems with crashing in trees, mainly complications of, um, gravity and physics. I reckon a pony bottle and a good axe, plus disciplining oneself to undo the canopy just before ditching, would make the water a much less dangerous option, particularly in an aircraft with the stall speed of a Nanchang/Yak, which makes for a pretty low speed if done more or less into wind. (Although beware the wind/swell interaction - best not to land right into a swell, whatever the wind is doing.) There's no exact right or wrong answers, of course - just lots of free opinions - and people who've survived - and got hurt - in both situations. 



I hope that' s helpful. Not looking to spark any arguments, just sharing my thoughts...



Andrew

________________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Elmar [elmar.h(at)shaw.ca]

Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 6:12 PM

To: yak-list

Subject: Re: ditching a low wing radial






Thank you everyone who has responded

to my posting, very much appreciated.



I live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing

but big rocks, tall conifers and lots of water.

Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian

roulette.



The other day I had the pleasure to meet a

radial engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who

owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As far as

I've understood him, I would not have the best

of chances to survive ditching a CJ due the

NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy design,

he rather would try to put it down in the trees.



Those are merrymaking and backslapping

prospects, eh?



cheers



Elmar

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:30 am Post subject: Re: ditching a low wing radial

Lots of opinions about ditching in the drink vs trees, gear up, gear down, etc.



Below is a good read on actual statistics relative to water landings.



http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm

_________________
Milt

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Elmar,

  

 Quite frankly I'd go for the water.  I can't see where the cowl or the  cockpit would effect the out come any differently.  I live in  Florida.  If I only have a 'choice' of trees or water, I'll take the water  any day (close to shore, cause I can't swim far)  :-] 

  

 In a lot of ditchings, the cowling may or may not stay in tacked at  impact.  It doesn't matter the design (radial or otherwise) either.   As for the CJ canopy, I would love to have a mechanism to be able to jettison  it.  If it does not lock back good enough, it could slam forward at  impact.  Other than that, it might take a ditching OK.

  

 Not all aircraft ditch the same.  There are many variables in a  ditching.  "Sea state" is one.  Airspeed and aircraft attitude  another.  And aircraft design.  You can have two different aircraft in  the same weight and airspeed class, one will take to water like a duck while  other makes a ditching very dangerous.  One only has to look at the B-17  and B-24.  Ditching a B-24 with its very light sliding bomb bay doors that  would crush in at water impact, usually meant the fuselage would brake behind  the wing.  One vet told me of his B-24 ditching off Italy in a clam sea,  that the airplane broke and sank with-in 10 seconds.  There is a story of a  B-17 ditching where the airplane had to be sunk by naval gun fire! 

  

 A good friend of mine ditched a F4U. (Last person to do  so)  I asked him about the ditching.  The sea was about calm  (less than 2 foot chop).  Since the engine quite at low altitude, he  didn't have time to pick a good ditching heading.  He tighten his  straps and open the canopy.  At impact the airplane swung around.  He  did not get injured in any way.  He undid his straps and stepped  out.  A near by boat picked him up before the airplane sank in 90 feet  of water.  

  

 There is a very good video of a T-28 ditching into Tampa bay in April this  year.  Just a couple hundred feet at most from the end of the runway.   Smooth water, GEAR AND FLAP DOWN!   (he had an engine  failure).  The pilot stalled into the water from about 5 feet.  At  impact you could see the cowling fly off.  The airplane went inverted  and stayed that way.  The water was very shallow at that spot, so it did  not sink.  Both pilot and GIB were fine.

  

 I am personally aware only one ditching that ever went  wrong.  During a S&R mission with CAP in CT, my crew and  I found a Piper Cherokee in the bottom of a pond.  The 4  occupants (1 man 2 women & a dog) had drowned.  The airplane  had very little damage (someone told me it was repaired. I doubt it).  The  reason they drowned, was because the door was held shut by the collapse of  the leading edge root fairing, that had folded back against the door.   (They could have kicked out side windows BTW)    

  

 In ancient times back at Pan Am, once a year we'd spend a whole day on  ditching (After all we did a LOT of over water flying).  And any military  pilot, can tell you, specially the transport ones, they go into great detail  about ditching (You see they don't have those nice bang seats).  Guys who  come up though the "non professional" ranks usually don't get exposed to that  type of training.  

  

 Anyway if its trees, rocks, or water, I'll go for the water.  If its a  field or water - - most likely the field.  (After all the EPA will be  breather down my neck). ;-\

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 5/31/2011 2:15:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  elmar.h(at)shaw.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: Elmar <elmar.h(at)shaw.ca>



Thank you    everyone who has responded

to my posting, very much appreciated.



I    live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing

but big rocks, tall conifers    and lots of water.

Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian    

roulette.



The other day I had the pleasure to meet a

radial    engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who

owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As    far as 

I've understood him, I would not have the best 

of chances to    survive ditching a CJ due the 

NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy    design,

he rather would try to put it down in the trees.



Those are    merrymaking and backslapping 

prospects,  ================================================e  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: Re: ditching a low wing radial

While I personally hate anonymous posts and therefore rarely recognize them, the one by N395V says it all here.  My guess is "ditching" into the trees has a somewhat lower survival rate.  I have no idea what your friend is talking about when he says "due to the design of the cowl", makes no sense to me.  I live in the western Rockies....lots of dry lake beds and ag fields....good places for "off site" landings around Salt Lake...but east of here it quickly gets pretty inhospitable for a forced landing....without a definitivly better option in sight, I'm taking the silk elevator.



Gear up v. Gear down....when you look at the Yak-50 engine failure video from England, I can see very little reason to ever try to land with the gear down....you stop quickly (less than 100 yards) with minimal damage and minimize the chance of flipping on your back.  Speaking of on your back....the guys survived the T-28 splash down even when the plane went on it's back...not something as likely to happen on dry ground.  



In fact, I just ferried a CJ over the Sierras.  My options were pine trees, maybe highway 80 on some stretches, and lakes...which were partly frozen over.   In my mind if my engine quit and I couldn't get to a straight stretch of highway, I was jumping.  I envisioned myself ditching in one of those lakes, surviving the ditching, and then dying as I struggled to get through the ice in the lake....



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: ditching a low wing radial

Spitfires and Hurricanes had about a 75 % fatality rate in water ditchings. The radiators grabbed and the aircraft would plunge under water, giving the pilot a face full of water at about 80 mph. They were instructed to open canopy before impact.

  A Pitts went in the water and Assumed a vertical position, went all the way under , then popped up with canopy above water, still vertical. The un-injured occupants only then released the canopy and escaped.  

 If my Sukhoi quits over water, I will bail out if able. 

Rick VOLKER



Sent from my iPhone



On May 31, 2011, at 8:47 AM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]  Elmar,

  

 Quite frankly I'd go for the water.  I can't see where the cowl or the  cockpit would effect the out come any differently.  I live in  Florida.  If I only have a 'choice' of trees or water, I'll take the water  any day (close to shore, cause I can't swim far)  :-] 

  

 In a lot of ditchings, the cowling may or may not stay in tacked at  impact.  It doesn't matter the design (radial or otherwise) either.   As for the CJ canopy, I would love to have a mechanism to be able to jettison  it.  If it does not lock back good enough, it could slam forward at  impact.  Other than that, it might take a ditching OK.

  

 Not all aircraft ditch the same.  There are many variables in a  ditching.  "Sea state" is one.  Airspeed and aircraft attitude  another.  And aircraft design.  You can have two different aircraft in  the same weight and airspeed class, one will take to water like a duck while  other makes a ditching very dangerous.  One only has to look at the B-17  and B-24.  Ditching a B-24 with its very light sliding bomb bay doors that  would crush in at water impact, usually meant the fuselage would brake behind  the wing.  One vet told me of his B-24 ditching off Italy in a clam sea,  that the airplane broke and sank with-in 10 seconds.  There is a story of a  B-17 ditching where the airplane had to be sunk by naval gun fire! 

  

 A good friend of mine ditched a F4U. (Last person to do  so)  I asked him about the ditching.  The sea was about calm  (less than 2 foot chop).  Since the engine quite at low altitude, he  didn't have time to pick a good ditching heading.  He tighten his  straps and open the canopy.  At impact the airplane swung around.  He  did not get injured in any way.  He undid his straps and stepped  out.  A near by boat picked him up before the airplane sank in 90 feet  of water.  

  

 There is a very good video of a T-28 ditching into Tampa bay in April this  year.  Just a couple hundred feet at most from the end of the runway.   Smooth water, GEAR AND FLAP DOWN!   (he had an engine  failure).  The pilot stalled into the water from about 5 feet.  At  impact you could see the cowling fly off.  The airplane went inverted  and stayed that way.  The water was very shallow at that spot, so it did  not sink.  Both pilot and GIB were fine.

  

 I am personally aware only one ditching that ever went  wrong.  During a S&R mission with CAP in CT, my crew and  I found a Piper Cherokee in the bottom of a pond.  The 4  occupants (1 man 2 women & a dog) had drowned.  The airplane  had very little damage (someone told me it was repaired. I doubt it).  The  reason they drowned, was because the door was held shut by the collapse of  the leading edge root fairing, that had folded back against the door.   (They could have kicked out side windows BTW)    

  

 In ancient times back at Pan Am, once a year we'd spend a whole day on  ditching (After all we did a LOT of over water flying).  And any military  pilot, can tell you, specially the transport ones, they go into great detail  about ditching (You see they don't have those nice bang seats).  Guys who  come up though the "non professional" ranks usually don't get exposed to that  type of training.  

  

 Anyway if its trees, rocks, or water, I'll go for the water.  If its a  field or water - - most likely the field.  (After all the EPA will be  breather down my neck). ;-\

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 5/31/2011 2:15:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  elmar.h(at)shaw.ca (elmar.h(at)shaw.ca) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: Elmar <elmar.h(at)shaw.ca (elmar.h(at)shaw.ca)>



Thank you    everyone who has responded

to my posting, very much appreciated.



I    live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing

but big rocks, tall conifers    and lots of water.

Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian    

roulette.



The other day I had the pleasure to meet a

radial    engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who

owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As    far as 

I've understood him, I would not have the best 

of chances to    survive ditching a CJ due the 

NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy    design,

he rather would try to put it down in the trees.



Those are    merrymaking and backslapping 

prospects,  ================================================e  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

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