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Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp

 
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?
Stan Sutterfield


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vision287(at)earthlink.ne
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

Hello Stan,

I have no experience with the Kisan battery charger system.

I have a Deltran Corp 4 Bank Battery Tender Charging Station for my boat
batteries, lawnmower, and Harley. Mine does not have the voltmeter /
ammeter / temp gauge built-in. I choose this manufacturer because their
literature says you can charge AGM (absorbed glass matte), sealed
maintenance free and flooded batteries.

http://batterytender.com/

Sincerely,
Mark A. Naig
<<snip>>
Time: 07:43:31 PM PST US
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp



Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?
Stan Sutterfield


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

At 10:35 PM 3/16/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?

Without having one in hand to test against its marketing
hype any degree of 'goodness' cannot be assigned.
Something to consider in the selection and acquisition
of battery chargers:

The majority of us want to use our airplanes just like
we use our cars and lawnmowers. Pull it out of parking,
use it, put it away. All machines have requirements for
operation (lubrication, fuel, functionality of components
like ignition and carburetors) along with some nice but
not necessary activities like keeping it clean, touching
up the rust spots, etc.

When you move past the pull-it-out-use-it-put-it-away
activities, it's useful to consider additions to cost-
of-ownership for the way in which one invests $time$ on
that piece of hardware.

Batteries: There's been a ton of discussion on the List
and elsewhere about the finer points of selecting, purchasing,
and using batteries along with recommendations for tools
(chargers, cap testers, load testers) and system integration
(regulators, temp compensation, charge current monitoring, etc).

If one reads the fine print on any battery manufacturer's
data sheets . . . he learns about the more esoteric points
of achieving maximum performance from the battery. Do a study
of the functionality of components of the charging system
and we get another set of gee-whiz features purported to
optimize functionality of the component (and convince you
that investing your $time$ on that component is a good
thing to do). Finally, we can read the various maintenance
manuals for lawnmowers, automobiles and airplanes. Here we
we hope to find a system integrator's attempt to pick and choose
from the various fine points of selection, operation and
maintenance of the battery for a well defined repeatable
experiment: Maximize utility of battery while minimizing
$time$ to own it.

Without a doubt, the vast majority of gee-whiz features
for all the products will deliver what they promise. The
questions for us as systems integrators and users of those
products should consider, "What amount of $time$ should
I expend in the ownership of the battery and tools to
use/maintain it such that the cost of ownership ($time per
flight hour) is minimized?"

Here's where the rubber hits the road. The aviation
community is not unique in that there's a ton of information
but supportive and derogatory about any/all of the
components being considered. Here's how my thoughts on
batteries have evolved over the years:

When I started writing for the OBAM aviation community
in 1987, flooded batteries were king. OBAM aircraft
carried a huge variety of products ranging from motor-cycle
batteries to qualified aircraft batteries having a huge
variability in $time$ of ownership. B&C was just starting
to investigate various vent-regulated products including
gell cells from Sonnenschein to the earliest RG jelly-roll
cells from Gates. Some showed promise, others (Gates) were
discarded. Over the intervening 20 years, the vent-regulated
(sealed) battery products have matured to the point where
there are few "gotchas" in battery selection and many
capable products to choose from.

Once you drag your battery purchase home and stick it
in the airplane, the obvious lowest expenditure of
$time$ to own it is, "pull it out, use it, and put it
away until it dies." Works fine for day-vfr-no-ClassA/B
operation. Once we begin to depend on the battery for
more than engine cranking and alternator stabilization,
the need to consider quantity of stored energy surfaces.

Okay, how much $time$ is necessary to maintain a battery
at or above minimum performance levels? If one purchases
a premium battery, the owner/operator is compelled to
consider extra-ordinary tools and charging system design
features selected to optimize battery life. So on top
of $time$ to acquire the premium battery, we add
$time$ to acquire system features and maintenance
tools on top of which we pile more $time$ to utilize
those tools in the quest for getting our money's worth
out of the battery.

A few years ago, I began suggesting that you purchase the
least expensive battery you can find and replace it every
annual. Hmmmm . . . no special charging system considerations,
no maintenance tools, just drag it out, use it, put it away.
If one flies 100 hrs/year, battery reserve can be as low
as 40 cents per hour plus perhaps one $hour$ per year to
acquire new, change out old, and dispose of old battery into
the recycle stream.

Now, put a $100 battery in the airplane and you're
definitely more interested in KNOWING when it's time to
replace it. Now you spend $time$ to acquire the tools
and use them with some notion of getting the most from
your battery purchase dollar.

Will a $175 battery charger help you do this? Probably
not. When you taxi up to the parking place after a flight
the battery should be charged. The most functionality you
can expect from a $high$ charger is to "maintain" the
battery. Useful only when your next flight is months
away. A $40 wall-wart maintainer will do just
fine. Of course, if one goes months between flights, your
average duration of flights needs to be exceedingly long
to drive your battery reserve price down toward 40-cents/hr.

Okay, how about capacity? Hmmmm . . . real capacity testers
can be as inexpensive (and loosely calibrated) as the
scheme described in the battery chapter of the 'Connection.
Or, one might opt for very sophisticated but inexpensive
tools like the device at:

http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm

Okay, assuming you have a capacity measurement system of
some kind, now you factor in the $time$ for acquiring
the test equipment and $time$ required to periodically
exercise the equipment with the notion of driving down
battery costs while in fact, cost of battery ownership is
driven upward.

I have a raft of chargers here in my shop, most of which
are wall-wart maintainers that keep my instrumentation
batteries ready to go. I have various samples of super
chargers all of which claim to correctly massage batteries
based on manufacturing technology. Some claim to "desulphate"
as well . . . a feature I've yet to quantify for improving
on cost of ownership.

Super-whizzy battery chargers can strut their stuff only
when used to recharge deeply discharged batteries like
for golf carts and trolling motors. We put our car,
lawnmower, and airplanes away with the batteries at or
near fully charged. I'll suggest that if one should worry
about battery charging techniques and tools, we should
concentrate on what's in the vehicle, not what's plugged into
the hangar wall.

The study document on the MC33092 regulator chip is nearly
complete . . . in that document, we'll explore some of the
finer points of on-board battery maintenance systems along
with an illustration of how one sorts marketing hype from
features that reduce $time$/hr for owning, operating and
maintaining the system.

Getting back to your original question Stan:

I have three or four chargers in the shop that I purchased
to explore their claims and see if they had value in
helping me lower the cost of ownership for batteries.
I can tell you that my oldest battery charger is 30+
year old device with a low (10A) setting and a boost
(50A) setting. No voltage regulation of any kind.

I've used it perhaps 30 times in 30 years
to get a vehicle running when I inadvertently ran the
battery down. It's the crudest of charging systems with
the simplest of demands for functionality. Even my
super-whizzy chargers won't help me crank an engine . . .
not enough output. I can hook up one of supper-whizzy
chargers and come back in an hour . . . but the beat
up old dog of a charger keeps me from being late for work.

I'll suggest that anyone's characterization of the
charger you cited as "good" will have little to do with
your ability to realize $175 worth of utility. It's
sort of like buying an electron microscope to help you
tweeze splinters from a finger. I'll suggest that
a product like . . .

http://www.batterygiant.com/BatteryByProductCode/BMC-12612A

or

http://www.batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3

will yield a much greater return on investment and
lower the cost of ownership for batteries used in your
airplane. Anything you do beyond this takes a lot
of carefully controlled studies to determine how much
the most optimized schedule of battery pampering will
extend the service life of your battery. It's almost
a sure bet that the total $time$ needed to squeeze the
last service-hour out of any battery will produce
battery reserve costs far greater than 40 cents per
flight hour.

Bob . . .

-------------------------------------------
< Sometimes the best way to drive a nail >
< is with a hammer. >
< R. Nuckolls >
--------------------------------------------


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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you don't know if it's any good. Sorry Bob, not trying to give you a hard time but a book chapter on a subject that you have already given your views on is a bit much in my opinion. But it is your forum.

However I do have experience with this device. I used one on my Harley for about a year or two to keep it charged between the periods you can ride a air cooled bike in Texas. It worked fine until one day it smoked (my technical term for stopped functioning correctly). Don't know why, didn't really care, and I replaced it with a Battery Tender JR. YMMV.

Michael Sausen

Do not archive

--


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Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
Quote:



So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you don't know if it's any good.

Well, Bob did not say that. What Bob said is he couldn't comment on that
device because he has no experience with it. This is just plain, honest
fact. What he did say is that it is cheaper to just replace the battery
every year than to buy a fancy charger or buy a special regulator to
better care for the battery. From a reliability and monetary point of
view, I suspect he is right.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

At 09:48 AM 3/17/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:

<rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you
don't know if it's any good. Sorry Bob, not trying to give you a hard
time but a book chapter on a subject that you have already given your
views on is a bit much in my opinion. But it is your forum.

. . . yes, many things I've written recently have
been written many times before in years past. But would you
care to make a guess as to how many of the 1300+ folks on the
List have researched the archives on this topic?

Suppose I had written, "The $175 charger isn't worth the money
you'll have to spend to acquire it." Would you have been
curious as to why I would offer such advice?
Quote:
However I do have experience with this device. I used one on my Harley
for about a year or two to keep it charged between the periods you can
ride a air cooled bike in Texas. It worked fine until one day it smoked
(my technical term for stopped functioning correctly). Don't know why,
didn't really care, and I replaced it with a Battery Tender JR. YMMV.

You seem to have missed the point. You DO have experience
with it and reported that it's "just fine" . . .
The question to be answered is, "did you get $175 in
value from it?" You now report that the $35 Battery
Tender Jr has replaced it. I have three or four
Battery Tenders that work "just fine" for me . . .
and in my analytical response I've suggested that you'll
report the BTJr to be "just fine" too.

I wasn't for a minute suggesting that the supper-whizzy
charger didn't deliver on features offered. I WAS suggesting
that anecdotal responses are not very useful in making
a purchasing decision. Perhaps after some term of experience
with the Battery Tender Jr you can report your findings as
to perceptions of value-received-for-dollars-spent between
the two products. I asked the question but I have no
first-hand experience upon which to answer. As a user of both
products, your first-hand findings will be a useful addition
to my analytical approach. For the price of one supper-whizzy
charger you could buy 4 Battery Tenders. What's your take
on return on investment between the two choices?

Bob . . .


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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

Bob Said:
You seem to have missed the point. You DO have experience
with it and reported that it's "just fine" . . .
The question to be answered is, "did you get $175 in
value from it?"

Actually, I got about $55 worth of value from it as that is the actual cost of the charger, depending on where you get it from. The gee-whiz meter functions are not required for it to function and is an add on to the charging function or it can be bought as a package as you have quoted.

Like I said not trying to give you a hard time on it, just feel a dissertation to answer a simple question (at least in this forum) is a bit overkill when you have enlightened us many times before. I even went with the Battery Tender based on your recommendations. One other comment, if you don't feel people are intelligent enough to follow the rules of the forum, and thereby check the archives prior to asking a question, might be worth while to ask Matt to turn off the archive function for this list. I'm sure he would love to recoup the space.

do not archive


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp Reply with quote

Sorry I asked. I'll know better next time.
Stan Sutterfield
Do Not Archive

Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?


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