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Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer

 
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fderfler(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

I learned to fly in Miami, keep my plane in the Florida Keys, and I've only flown outside the state of a few times. The flight school in Florida never said a word about carb icing or carb heat. (They didn't say much about leaning the engine either!)

Then, I went for tailwheel training and spin training. I was fortunate to link up with an instructor who first reamed me a good one and then really taught me about carb icing... even (or ESPECIALLY) in Florida. I fly over water 90% of the time. (Why don't I have an amphib?... I ask myself that a lot.. and then I remember .. 4X the maintenance.! ) The humidity is always high.

You folks who fly (or plan to fly ) behind Corvair engines probably saw THIS ARTICLE because it was on a popular Corvair Website, but it is good reading for everyone with any kind of engine. And, maybe there are a few folks who missed it, so it is worth repeating here where the 601 builders live.

Carb icing can and will get you in the summer in Florida with any normally aspirated engine. The chart in the article is a little small.. there is a much bigger chart (and a more technical discussion) at THIS FAA Website. Note the slope of that Relative Humidity line. It's the humidity that drives the equation. If my tach drops below 2200 RPM, I pull the carb heat.
Frank Derfler
Islamorada, FL
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jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

I experienced carb ice at about 70F OAT with a temp/dew point spread of less than 5 degrees, even with cloudless clear sky. Fortunately, this was at 4500ft approaching SNA class C airspace. In a C152 with an O-235 Lycoming and metal prop, it lost power and ran rough only when I attemped climb power. There had been at least ten minutes after a power reduction from climb to slow cruise, not anywhere near idle. I added carb heat and notified SoCal Approach that I was unable to climb and was entering the class C. It took a few minutes for things to return to normal.

Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] I learned to fly in Miami, keep my plane in the Florida Keys, and I've only flown outside the state of a few times. The flight school in Florida never said a word about carb icing or carb heat. (They didn't say much about leaning the engine either!)

Then, I went for tailwheel training and spin training. I was fortunate to link up with an instructor who first reamed me a good one and then really taught me about carb icing... even (or ESPECIALLY) in Florida. I fly over water 90% of the time. (Why don't I have an amphib?... I ask myself that a lot.. and then I remember .. 4X the maintenance.! ) The humidity is always high.

You folks who fly (or plan to fly ) behind Corvair engines probably saw THIS ARTICLE because it was on a popular Corvair Website, but it is good reading for everyone with any kind of engine. And, maybe there are a few folks who missed it, so it is worth repeating here where the 601 builders live.

Carb icing can and will get you in the summer in Florida with any normally aspirated engine. The chart in the article is a little small.. there is a much bigger chart (and a more technical discussion) at THIS FAA Website. Note the slope of that Relative Humidity line. It's the humidity that drives the equation. If my tach drops below 2200 RPM, I pull the carb heat.
Frank Derfler
Islamorada, FL
--
See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com.

See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com

Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com
Guys: See


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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

I had ice during takeoff in Fla.with a J-3. Strong wind coming in from the ocean, warm day. Engine quite at end of landing roll. Two weeks later partner has same thing but he used carb. heat and it cleared up. Jerry of Ga

In a message dated 7/24/2008 2:26:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com writes:
Quote:
I experienced carb ice at about 70F OAT with a temp/dew point spread of less than 5 degrees, even with cloudless clear sky. Fortunately, this was at 4500ft approaching SNA class C airspace. In a C152 with an O-235 Lycoming and metal prop, it lost power and ran rough only when I attemped climb power. There had been at least ten minutes after a power reduction from climb to slow cruise, not anywhere near idle. I added carb heat and notified SoCal Approach that I was unable to climb and was entering the class C. It took a few minutes for things to return to normal.

Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
I learned to fly in Miami, keep my plane in the Florida Keys, and I've only flown outside the state of a few times. The flight school in Florida never said a word about carb icing or carb heat. (They didn't say much about leaning the engine either!)

Then, I went for tailwheel training and spin training. I was fortunate to link up with an instructor who first reamed me a good one and then really taught me about carb icing... even (or ESPECIALLY) in Florida. I fly over water 90% of the time. (Why don't I have an amphib?... I ask myself that a lot.. and then I remember .. 4X the maintenance.! ) The humidity is always high. 

You folks who fly (or plan to fly ) behind Corvair engines probably saw THIS ARTICLE because it was on a popular Corvair Website, but it is good reading for everyone with any kind of engine. And, maybe there are a few folks who missed it, so it is worth repeating here where the 601 builders live.

Carb icing can and will get you in the summer in Florida with any normally aspirated engine. The chart in the article is a little small.. there is a much bigger chart (and a more technical discussion) at THIS FAA Website. Note the slope of that Relative Humidity line. It's the humidity that drives the equation. If my tach drops below 2200 RPM, I pull the carb heat.
Frank Derfler
Islamorada, FL
--
See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com.

See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com  

Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com
Guys: See http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List eb href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com = -Matt title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ============ [/b]


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

WE often forget to pass on that information to others, living in Canada makes Carb heat not only a reality but a normal operation.

Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)
www.can-zacaviation.com


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leinad



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

You don't have to live in Canada for avoiding carb ice to be a normal part of operations. When I was learning to fly here in Virginia, I insisted that my lessons be provided in an older carberated aircraft. That way use of carb heat at the appropriate times became second nature. Good thread..
Dan Dempsey


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on the warm engine whereas and updraft carb is below the heat?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Mainly it is because cars had some method of carb heat built in and always functioning. It does still happen from time to time on cars. My first car was a Camero that had had some "work" done to it. I noticed that when it was cold and wet that it would run like crap. I took it to the shop and we found some hose wasn't attached causing carb ice.

ashontz wrote:
Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on the warm engine whereas and updraft carb is below the heat?


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Interesting. Now that you mention it, I just had my carb off my little old pickup truck and it has a 12-volt honeycomb carb heater on the base. Didn't really occur to me til you just mentioned it. Be interesting to check the Nissan manual and see what triggers the carb heater, or if it's on all the time.

Gig Giacona wrote:
Mainly it is because cars had some method of carb heat built in and always functioning. It does still happen from time to time on cars. My first car was a Camero that had had some "work" done to it. I noticed that when it was cold and wet that it would run like crap. I took it to the shop and we found some hose wasn't attached causing carb ice.

ashontz wrote:
Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on the warm engine whereas and updraft carb is below the heat?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

The plate at the bottom of a car carb. is to improve gas mileage by gasification. When the switch is on power goes to the plate. Jerry of Ga

In a message dated 7/28/2008 5:27:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>

Interesting. Now that you mention it, I just had my carb off my little old pickup truck and it has a 12-volt honeycomb carb heater on the base. Didn't really occur to me til you just mentioned it. Be interesting to check the Nissan manual and see what triggers the carb heater, or if it's on all the time.
Gig Giacona wrote:
Quote:
Mainly it is because cars had some method of carb heat built in and always functioning. It does still happen from time to time on cars. My first car was a Camero that had had some "work" done to it. I noticed that when it was cold and wet that it would run like crap. I took it to the shop and we found some hose wasn't attached causing carb ice.




ashontz wrote:
> Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on the warm engine whereas and updraft carb is below the heat?



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Andy,

Have you never heard of a heat riser? I haven't studied auto engines lately, but the old guys had a heat riser on the exhaust manifold or between the manifold and the exhaust pipe. It was either vacuum actuated or with a bi-metal spring. This valve would send hot exhaust gas either to the intake manifold or to the intake air filter. Either way, it provided the heat to keep carb ice from forming.

Jay in Dallas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

There's a heat riser there too. This is some sort of plate under the carb between the carb and the intake manifold.

Yeah, actually the heat riser would be the carb heat in a car. I'm not sure what function this other thing plays. Maybe helps vaporize the gas more. Just curious.

jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Andy,

Have you never heard of a heat riser? I haven't studied auto engines lately, but the old guys had a heat riser on the exhaust manifold or between the manifold and the exhaust pipe. It was either vacuum actuated or with a bi-metal spring. This valve would send hot exhaust gas either to the intake manifold or to the intake air filter. Either way, it provided the heat to keep carb ice from forming.

Jay in Dallas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

It is a common problem in old, air cooled Volkswagens, the kind with a similar configuration as the Corvair. Most of those cars have a single carb mounted on a long intake manifold made of steel tubing. There is a heat riser and, on 1968 and later, thermostat regulated intake air heat. When aftermarket air cleaners and mufflers are fitted, these heat features are often removed. That is when they experience carb ice. The stock Corvair had the intake manifolds integral with the head casting, conducting heat to the carb throttle base. VW's converted to dual carbs seem to be immune because short cast aluminum manifolds conduct enough heat.

ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz"

Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on [quote][b]


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

All good info, interesting comversation because you never really hear about the problem in cars in general, til you ask of course. Just makes you think that maybe there's a way to adapt something like a heat riser with an automatic, but over-rideable control, to an aircraft engine. Obviously the problem has been thought through for cars to the point that it's generally not an issue and hence never hear about it.

[quote="jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com"]It is a common problem in old, air cooled Volkswagens, the kind with a similar configuration as the Corvair. Most of those cars have a single carb mounted on a long intake manifold made of steel tubing. There is a heat riser and, on 1968 and later, thermostat regulated intake air heat. When aftermarket air cleaners and mufflers are fitted, these heat features are often removed. That is when they experience carb ice. The stock Corvair had the intake manifolds integral with the head casting, conducting heat to the carb throttle base. VW's converted to dual carbs seem to be immune because short cast aluminum manifolds conduct enough heat.

ashontz <ashontz> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz"

Just curious, why does this general not happen in cars? Is it because the carb is mounted on
Quote:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:45 am    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Andy,

Have you ever heard of carb heat? That's your heat riser. The carb heat knob gives you complete control over sending heated air to the carb, and if used properly, carb icing will never happen. Problem solved! No need for experimentation.

Jay in Dallas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Of course I've heard of carb heat. Smile What I'm questioning is why you never really hear about the problem in cars and why. Apparently there's some automatic controls in cars to take care of the problem, like the vacuum operated heat riser on the air filter housing that opens and closes while the engine is running. I've never really given it much thought before, but now I'm interested in how that control works in a car. I'm just wondering out loud how something like that vacuum operated control can be adapted to an aircraft engine, with some sort of manual override cable control. If a car is handling this pretty much automatically and hence is generally never a problem, why not adapt it for a plane?

jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Andy,

Have you ever heard of carb heat? That's your heat riser. The carb heat knob gives you complete control over sending heated air to the carb, and if used properly, carb icing will never happen. Problem solved! No need for experimentation.

Jay in Dallas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Andy,

Carb heat on an airplane and heat riser on a car introduce hot air to the intake stream. That makes the air less dense and engine performance suffers. On cars, this is "automatic" and it is a somewhat sloppy operation, paying less attention to the operational timing and high engine performance than to the elimination of the possibility of carb icing. The high performance and racing guys totally eliminate this feature to gain performance. In an airplane, we don't want an "automatic" heat system to activate unannounced, say at takeoff. We simply can't afford the loss of engine performance at such a critical time; so we choose to stay in personal control of that feature.

Jay in Dallas
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ashontz



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I'm aware performance would be degraded by carb heat on all the time, I was just curious as to what's going on with the heat riser in the car and how automatic is really is. If it's basically on all the time once the engine's warmed up, well, that aint good for a plane. But if there was some sort of control that senses temperature and turns it on and off I'd be interested in what's going on there.

So basically a car always has the carb heat on then.

jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Andy,

Carb heat on an airplane and heat riser on a car introduce hot air to the intake stream. That makes the air less dense and engine performance suffers. On cars, this is "automatic" and it is a somewhat sloppy operation, paying less attention to the operational timing and high engine performance than to the elimination of the possibility of carb icing. The high performance and racing guys totally eliminate this feature to gain performance. In an airplane, we don't want an "automatic" heat system to activate unannounced, say at takeoff. We simply can't afford the loss of engine performance at such a critical time; so we choose to stay in personal control of that feature.

Jay in Dallas
Do not archive





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

A good question, indeed - but why hasn't it been done yet? In a car, carb ice is inconvenient, but in an airplane it can be fatal...
Carlos
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2008/7/29 ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

Of course I've heard of carb heat. Smile What I'm questioning is why you never really hear about the problem in cars and why. Apparently there's some automatic controls in cars to take care of the problem, like the vacuum operated heat riser on the air filter housing that opens and closes while the engine is running. I've never really given it much thought before, but now I'm interested in how that control works in a car. I'm just wondering out loud how something like that vacuum operated control can be adapted to an aircraft engine, with some sort of manual override cable control. If a car is handling this pretty much automatically and hence is generally never a problem, why not adapt it for a plane?



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ashontz



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Carb Ice: Even in Florida, Even in Summer Reply with quote

Exactly. I'll have to look at my Corvair cores and see what's done there, if anything.

[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]A good question, indeed - but why hasn't it been done yet? In a car, carb ice is inconvenient, but in an airplane it can be fatal...
Carlos
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2008/7/29 ashontz <ashontz>
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz>

Of course I've heard of carb heat. Smile What I'm questioning is why you never really hear about the problem in cars and why. Apparently there's some automatic controls in cars to take care of the problem, like the vacuum operated heat riser on the air filter housing that opens and closes while the engine is running. I've never really given it much thought before, but now I'm interested in how that control works in a car. I'm just wondering out loud how something like that vacuum operated control can be adapted to an aircraft engine, with some sort of manual override cable control. If a car is handling this pretty much automatically and hence is generally never a problem, why not adapt it for a plane?



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