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dampening circuit request

 
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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Hi gurus of electrons,

As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
too low.

I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:

http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307

which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
dry for some period of time?

Thanks,
Mickey

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

At 03:52 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

Hi gurus of electrons,

As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
too low.

I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:

http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307

which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
dry for some period of time?

Sure . . .

First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
not insure that it never flashes at or during
operation at the level transition.

Given your particular application, you're not really
interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).

If the level is so low that the light comes on even
once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
power down).

The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
come on until the float voltage is at or below the
trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
minutes.

This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
hesitation operation of the warning lights.

As you might guess, the options and approaches
to solution are great in number. What is your vision
of the elegant solution?

Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.

Quote:
First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
not insure that it never flashes at or during
operation at the level transition.

I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.

If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
to flicker. However, if the level gets to
about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
Is that what you are saying?
Quote:
Given your particular application, you're not really
interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).

Exactly.

Quote:
If the level is so low that the light comes on even
once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
power down).

This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
it is not a false alarm.

Quote:
The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
come on until the float voltage is at or below the
trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
minutes.

That sounds perfect!

Quote:
This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
hesitation operation of the warning lights.

As you might guess, the options and approaches
to solution are great in number. What is your vision
of the elegant solution?

What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
would be required for the microprocessor, but
obviously the smaller the better!

Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
in the necessary bits and pieces later.

Many thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Mickey,
A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
isn't as exciting.

Mark Steitle

--


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Quote:
A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
isn't as exciting.

Hi Mark,

I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already
built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in
when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another
$250 for a new tank.

When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it
would be possible to slip something over the sensor
before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4"
NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.

> First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
> is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
> with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
> not insure that it never flashes at or during
> operation at the level transition.

I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.

If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
to flicker. However, if the level gets to
about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
Is that what you are saying?

Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer
you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more
likely you are to get periodic false lights. However,
if you see ANY light for even a transient condition
at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an
observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether
the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc
and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching
circuit is easy to implement and does the job.

Quote:
> Given your particular application, you're not really
> interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
> level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).

Exactly.

> If the level is so low that the light comes on even
> once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
> What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
> A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
> once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
> power down).

This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
it is not a false alarm.

> The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
> re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
> floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
> to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
> come on until the float voltage is at or below the
> trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
> After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
> above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
> minutes.

That sounds perfect!

> This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
> hesitation operation of the warning lights.
>
> As you might guess, the options and approaches
> to solution are great in number. What is your vision
> of the elegant solution?

What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
would be required for the microprocessor, but
obviously the smaller the better!

Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
in the necessary bits and pieces later.

The 9011 exists right now. See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf

This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety
of capabilities controlled by software. The package
shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on
the drawing board.

Bob . . .


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mprather(at)spro.net
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

I think I actually like the 'flicker' effect associated with being right
on the edge of min capacity. If the volume in the tank is dropping
slowly, then the flickering will start very intermittently, gradually grow
more frequent, then finally the light will stay on continuously. If,
however, the level is dropping rapidly (developed serious leak), then the
light will go from always off to always on very quickly - indicating that
landing as soon as possible is the best bet.

Procedurally, check the level in the system prior to starting the engine
and make the go-no-go level significantly higher than the sensor level.
Then, if the light turns on while on a flight of normal length, you _know_
you have a leak.

Matt-
Quote:

<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>

At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:

>
><mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
>
>Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.
>
> > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
> > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
> > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
> > not insure that it never flashes at or during
> > operation at the level transition.
>
>I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.
>
>If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
>the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
>a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
>to flicker. However, if the level gets to
>about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
>Is that what you are saying?

Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer
you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more
likely you are to get periodic false lights. However,
if you see ANY light for even a transient condition
at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an
observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether
the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc
and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching
circuit is easy to implement and does the job.

> > Given your particular application, you're not really
> > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
> > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
>
>Exactly.
>
> > If the level is so low that the light comes on even
> > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
> > What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
> > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
> > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
> > power down).
>
>This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
>it is not a false alarm.
>
> > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
> > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
> > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
> > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
> > come on until the float voltage is at or below the
> > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
> > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
> > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
> > minutes.
>
>That sounds perfect!
>
> > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
> > hesitation operation of the warning lights.
> >
> > As you might guess, the options and approaches
> > to solution are great in number. What is your vision
> > of the elegant solution?
>
>What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
>function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
>would be required for the microprocessor, but
>obviously the smaller the better!
>
>Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
>you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
>simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
>on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
>in the necessary bits and pieces later.

The 9011 exists right now. See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf

This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety
of capabilities controlled by software. The package
shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on
the drawing board.

Bob . . .




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... Smile

Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the
sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to
the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on
the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp
fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary.
Matt-

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

> A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
> inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
> isn't as exciting.

Hi Mark,

I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already
built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in
when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another
$250 for a new tank.

When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it
would be possible to slip something over the sensor
before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4"
NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive



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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Quote:
YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... Smile

Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the
sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to
the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on
the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp
fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary.

That is a good one. Since I have not installed the NPT bung (flange)
for the sensor, what I could do is build a little slosh tank onto
the bung before I have it welded in. That would keep things a bit
more stable until Bob comes out with his electronic solution. Smile

Thanks for the suggestions.

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Time: 06:52:51 AM PST US
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: dampening circuit request
Hi gurus of electrons,
As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
too low.

I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:

http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=3D307

which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
dry for some period of time?

Thanks,
Mickey

Not trying to dampen anything here Mickey, but why are you trying to fix a problem that you don't even know that you have? Seems to me it would be best to just fly the airplane and if it appears that a fix is needed then deal with it as necessary.
Deke


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Quote:
Not trying to dampen anything here Mickey, but why are you trying to
fix a problem that you don't even know that you have? Seems to me it
would be best to just fly the airplane and if it appears that a fix
is needed then deal with it as necessary.

Hi Deke,

Not a bad idea. I was hoping that the response to my
question would be something along the lines of
"Heck, everyone knows you slap a 99 cent flux capacitor
between the alpha and the gamma leads of your sensor,
and that dampens it for ya."

I'm pedaling as fast as I can on this electronics stuff!

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Dampening circuit request Reply with quote

At 02:15 PM 3/2/2006 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

> Not trying to dampen anything here Mickey, but why are you trying to
> fix a problem that you don't even know that you have? Seems to me it
> would be best to just fly the airplane and if it appears that a fix
> is needed then deal with it as necessary.

Hi Deke,

Not a bad idea. I was hoping that the response to my
question would be something along the lines of
"Heck, everyone knows you slap a 99 cent flux capacitor
between the alpha and the gamma leads of your sensor,
and that dampens it for ya."

I'm pedaling as fast as I can on this electronics stuff!

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing

Deke's point is well taken. I'm not convinced that
any auxiliary circuitry beyond perhaps the latching
relay is called for. With low fuel warnings (a commodity
that is used up EVERY flight) monitored by floats driving
analog gages, the gages are often lubricated with
50,000 centistoke silicon oil. The gage is fully free to
move on lubricated pivots but is damped to the extreme by
the very viscous oil. This is why most folks are unaware
of how variable the signal is coming in from the potentiometer
on the float . . . If you're in very rough air, the voltage
could be very hard to interpret without dampening systems
of some type.

In the case of your coolant warning, it's a small tank.
You're also monitoring a fluid level that is expected to
be fixed well above the warning point for all phases
of all flights. The fact that you get any warning
(flickering or not) is like the low voltage, low vacuum,
low oil pressure, etc lights coming on. At this point,
filtering or dampening for the purpose of having an orderly
behavior of lights on the panel is a secondary concern.
It's an event that should not be happening and demands
attention.

My sense is that the photo/optical sensor you've ordered
will work just fine. Go ahead and stick it through the
tank wall as planned. I doubt that you're going to
discover some operational quirks that demand extraordinary
signal conditioning.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Dampening circuit request Reply with quote

Hi Mickey
Deke has echoed my thoughts.
I'm enjoying following this thread but having spent a couple of years
converting a Subaru and obsessing too much over various issues, this one
really doesn't sound like it is worth worrying about. I'd also just put
the sensor somewhere in the bottom third of the tank and fly it. The
liquid level will rise as the coolant heats up of course. Each to his
own but I'm finding that my simplest solutions are turning out to be the
best and have the least complications. I used a 0 to 28 psi pressure
sensor with an EIS 4000 and initial ground running looks like it is
going to work very well for a coolant loss monitor for me. It seems to
largely track the coolant temperature so far. I did use a
semi-transparent plastic reservoir from a Volvo so that the preflight
level can be checked so that might be why I'm less concerned about
monitoring the exact level.
Ken

Fox5flyer wrote:

Quote:


Time: 06:52:51 AM PST US
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: dampening circuit request
Hi gurus of electrons,
As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
too low.

I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:

http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=3D307

which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
dry for some period of time?

Thanks,
Mickey

Not trying to dampen anything here Mickey, but why are you trying to fix a problem that you don't even know that you have? Seems to me it would be best to just fly the airplane and if it appears that a fix is needed then deal with it as necessary.
Deke





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