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Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.)

 
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.) Reply with quote

Mickey wants to turn his car off at 100 mph and

AND

Bob N. wants proof.

Fair enough.

Also I'll take any failed VOLTAGE regulator for professional evaluation.


Mickey wrote:

"What happens if you are driving down the highway at 100 mph,
everything working fine, and you turn the key off?"


Dear Mickey:
I am so laughing out loud. I hope you are trying to be funny. To
answer your question you would DIE when the steering locks and
you fly off the road.

Do you often turn your car's ignition OFF at 100 mph?

I'll repeat the intended purpose of the IGN lead is a small signal
current/voltage to tell the alternator to come alive or go to sleep.
IT IS NOT designed to "CONTROL" high amp loads of the
alternator under load. It is also does not control the field directly.

To answer your question, if you turn the ignition off at 100 MPH,
it's no different than at zero MPH.

In a car the first position, normal driving is ignition. The next
position is accessory, than off.

Now in your scenario if you kill the ignition the engine will shut
down even at 100 mph with an automatic. With a manual and the
clutch out the engine will turn a little?

Now lets say you turn the ignition switch OFF/locked steering!

Now let's turn the ignition off, alternator off and load at 100 MPH?

Only the head lights and brake lights work. The alternator is still
connected to battery and the engine will lets assume keep turning
(manual transmission going down a steep hill). Now lets say you
turn the IGN on again to run? Could you do some ALT damage?
NOW TELL ME IF THIS IS realistic? Ha ha ha ha ha

Now when you look at the key function on a car, I think most bring
the alternator on first than the load (master realy). I could be wrong.
Reagardless your senerio is not going to happen in the real worlds.

Mickey I think you need to test this and get back to us. : - )

Mickey your are my idol, smart and have a beautiful airplane
project (you do nice work), but you need to get out of the shop
and get fresh air. : -) This is not how they are designed to work.

To clarify, I think most of the damage of IGN switching under
load is not turning it OFF, but happens when you turn it BACK
ON under load. Now I know many ND alternator will shut down
with the IGN lead and come back ON under load with IGN lead.
I suspect Van's alternator in question may already be damaged.

The first sign of damage, after controlling the alternator under
load successfully with the IGN lead, both OFF and ON, is it stops
responding to the IGN. Why? Not sure, send me the I-VR and I'll
have it tested and failure mode tested.

There may be some ND alternators that will be happy to switch
the IGN lead all day under load, but it seems that they protest after
a while. Sorry Bob N., no proof just seen it 3-4 times, there is a
pattern. Repeatable? Looks that way. My proof is how they are
wired in the application it was designed for. Nuff said.

Look at how cars and industrial applications use these alternators,
designed so you CAN'T turn it OFF or ON under load normally,
except for the wild 100 mph scenario Mickey (get help) came up
with above. Even than I don't think it makes a difference.




Bob N. wrote:
"Can you point us to any published literature on this? Please
understand that I'm not attacking your assertions with any kind of
"PROVE IT" attitude."

Bob, I know you dislike internal regulation but everything Jon said
is true & typical of an I-VR. They DO have *soft start, they do have
RPM drop out and they do have temperature compensation. I am
no expert, but I talk to experts. The temperature compensation
function I know monitors high temp protection, but I do not know
about a cold weather temp control function. It should be noted
that EXTERNAL voltage regulators have no idea of alternators internal
temps and do not protect the alternator from high temps like I-VR's
do. (one for the internal voltage regulators!)

*(soft start, ramps-up slow, also combined with time delay after
target RPM is reached.)

Bob, I know you will never believe me, no matter what evidence I
show, so I won't try. I have seen you dismiss too many people and
too set in your opinions to play that game, so Bob I suggest you
contact TRANSPO engineering, world wide producers of almost
every voltage regulator ever made. They will clue you into the
intelligent and logic functions of I-VR's. They really are smart
devices, not dumb VR's. They have all the features mentioned.

http://www.transpo-usa.com/

For the record I do not think the cold temp is the reason for this
problem, but I could be wrong. I think the I-VR may have been
damaged already from the crow-bar or switching the IGN lead
ON/OFF under load. Also for the record the IGN can and do
control the alternator under load on many ND models, but NOT
designed for this routinely and eventually damage results.

As far as control of I-VR alternators, it would be wonderful to use
and trust the IGN wire. We could put a crow-bar on the CB to the
IGN lead. However you can't depend on it (apparently from
historical & empirical data). That's why a pullable CB on the B-
lead, to positively isolate the alternator, independent of anything is
suggested. Another way to achieve the same isolation is the crow
bar and over voltage relay on the B-lead. That works also but its
heavy, costly, complicated and potentially can cause nuisance
trips. In defense of the crow-bar it is automatic. The pullable CB
needs pilot action. The choice is the builders. As Bob N. says if
you can't take the small chance of an OV, than use an External
Regulator and OV module of some kind. if for no other reason
it is simple. However there is no guarantee that will work 100%
There's no 100% system.


Cheers George


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.) Reply with quote

At 12:34 PM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:


Mickey wants to turn his car off at 100 mph and

AND

Bob N. wants proof.

Not proof sir . . . UNDERSTANDING. I see those words on the 4-color
brochures and bang-for-the-buck bullets at the top of data
sheets . . . all of which ASSUME that your understanding
of their words is the same as their understanding of
their words.
<snip>

Quote:

As far as control of I-VR alternators, it would be wonderful to use
and trust the IGN wire. We could put a crow-bar on the CB to the
IGN lead. However you can't depend on it (apparently from
historical & empirical data). That's why a pullable CB on the B-
lead, to positively isolate the alternator, independent of anything is
suggested. Another way to achieve the same isolation is the crow
bar and over voltage relay on the B-lead. That works also but its
heavy, costly, complicated and potentially can cause nuisance
trips. In defense of the crow-bar it is automatic. The pullable CB
needs pilot action. The choice is the builders. As Bob N. says if
you can't take the small chance of an OV, than use an External
Regulator and OV module of some kind. if for no other reason
it is simple. However there is no guarantee that will work 100%
There's no 100% system.

. . . and nobody has ever claimed there was. For Part 25 airplanes
we're chartered to do the fault trees with probabilities applied to
each branch. When just one of those numbers is assumed, the result
suffers from a garbage-in-garbage out syndrome. That's why I
have come to believe that they add little value in determining our
future field experience. I can show you dozens of carefully calculated
predictions of golden operations in fielded systems that don't
even come close. That's why failure tolerance is so much easier to
embrace that hoped-for failure proof.

I'm working on an article that will illustrate the pitfalls of
accepting the bang-for-the-buck bullets -OR- the four-color
brochures at face value. Soon . . .

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.) Reply with quote

Dear Bob N.:

I have no Idea what you are talking about again and why its relavant,
but God Bless you.

**
COMMENTS BELOW (..............) ; Cheers George
**

>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.)

>>
>>
>>Mickey wants to turn his car off at 100 mph and
>>
>> AND
>>
>> Bob N. wants proof.

>Not proof sir . . . UNDERSTANDING. I see those words on the 4-color
>brochures and bang-for-the-buck bullets at the top of data
>sheets . . . all of which ASSUME that your understanding
>of their words is the same as their understanding of
>their words.


**
(BOB,CALL TRANSPO, TALK TO ENGINEERS:1800-TRANSPO/800-872-6776)
**

<snip>

>>
>> As far as control of I-VR alternators, it would be wonderful to use
>> and trust the IGN wire. We could put a crow-bar on the CB to the
>> IGN lead. However you can't depend on it (apparently from
>> historical & empirical data). That's why a pullable CB on the B-
>> lead, to positively isolate the alternator, independent of anything is
>> suggested. Another way to achieve the same isolation is the crow
>> bar and over voltage relay on the B-lead. That works also but its
>> heavy, costly, complicated and potentially can cause nuisance
>> trips. In defense of the crow-bar it is automatic. The pullable CB
>> needs pilot action. The choice is the builders. As Bob N. says if
>> you can't take the small chance of an OV, than use an External
>> Regulator and OV module of some kind. if for no other reason
>> it is simple. However there is no guarantee that will work 100%
>> There's no 100% system.

> . . . and nobody has ever claimed there was. For Part 25 airplanes
>we're chartered to do the fault trees with probabilities applied to
>each branch. When just one of those numbers is assumed, the result
>suffers from a garbage-in-garbage out syndrome. That's why I
>have come to believe that they add little value in determining our
>future field experience. I can show you dozens of carefully calculated
>predictions of golden operations in fielded systems that don't
>even come close. That's why failure tolerance is so much easier to
>embrace that hoped-for failure proof.

**
(BOB, I have an EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT; Don't give a RIP about Part 25 or 23)
**

>I'm working on an article that will illustrate the pitfalls of
>accepting the bang-for-the-buck bullets -OR- the four-color
>brochures at face value. Soon . . .


**
(BOB, What? U lost me (again), call Transpo, they'll help your UNDERSTANDING)
**

Bob . . .

**
(George, I am done. Peace)
**


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