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Alternator conversion

 
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bbradburry(at)allvantage.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Alternator conversion Reply with quote

Bob and others.
I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators
to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the
field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions
seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it.
My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what
are the pros and cons of these modifications? Is this safe? If not,
why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question,
so why have you not told us how to do these modifications?
I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information
on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were
removed. Is this the information that was removed?
I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the
field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the
external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this
has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance.
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry

-Snip-
Okay, in the simplest terms:

Install any internally regulated alternator of your choice.

Know that the reliability of whatever you choose (as long as
it's not a junkyard dog) is as good or better than anything
flying in certified ships . . . and we don't avoid flying
that rental machine because of our perceptions of alternators
and batteries they may carry.

Probability of OV condition is very low but not zero. Given
the current capability of the alternator, it's prudent to ASSUME
an OV condition can happen and plan for it . . . just as we've
done in certified ships for 70 years.

Know that some alternators recommended to the OBAM aircraft
community have control issues. Some if not most cannot be
turned ON/OFF at will any time under any conditions. If this
is a design goal you embrace, know that techniques are in
development
to meet that goal. If this is not a goal you embrace, then
the system as recommended by Van's and others does what it
says it will do . . . power your airplane with relatively low
risk even if you cannot control it.

99% of the past year's discussion on this topic dragged a
lot of peripheral and mostly irrelevant discourse that
did not advance the state of our art and science. We'll
endeavor to stay focused on simple-ideas and elegant
solutions for the future.

Not too much of a good thing my friend . . . too much of
irrelevant things. I've been taking flack from some cool
headed observers for letting "my List" get out of control.
I've never wanted to consider this List as a personal
possession. I did start it . . . but with the idea of planting
seeds that would grow on their own. However, it's entirely
appropriate to treat the List as a classroom where
ALL teachers are invited to practice their art and craft.

Seeds need water, sun, nutrients and protection from
destructive forces. Folks who just dig up seedlings and
throw dirt should be invited to modify their modus operandi
or take their shovels someplace else. I'll invite other
teachers who participate on this List to join me in maintaining
the loftiest goals in classroom atmosphere and decorum.

Keep in mind that anytime you have simple-ideas (obvious
truths) to share that will assemble into elegant solutions, you
too have an opportunity to be a teacher.
Bob . . .


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klehman(at)albedo.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Alternator conversion Reply with quote

Hi Bill

Sure you can do this if you wish and there is nothing wrong with that.
The subject comes up periodically and several folks have posted
suggested methods for some specific alternators. Some look to be easier
to mod than others. There are a couple of companies that offer such units.

I was not particularly interested as it seemed somewhat
counterproductive. You must do the mod and not cause a related problem
by doing so which is probably not too difficult. However it wouldn't be
the first time that a problem was caused just by opening a factory
assembled device. You must purchase and install a separate voltage
regulator which may not be as good as what is already in the alternator
depending on which one you choose. The remote Regulator will not be able
to monitor the alternator's temperature although I guess that is a
pretty minor consideration. You must find a place to put that regulator
and wire it reliably. Most important perhaps, you can no longer purchase
a replacement off the shelf alternator and quickly install it.

In addition I have little concern with using an OV contactor and a few
transorbs on my IR alternator. I'm betting that eventually Bob will
likely confirm that approach with some real testing and actual numbers.
Risks are low either way I think.

Ken

Bill Bradburry wrote:

Quote:


Bob and others.
I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators
to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the
field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions
seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it.
My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what
are the pros and cons of these modifications? Is this safe? If not,
why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question,
so why have you not told us how to do these modifications?
I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information
on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were
removed. Is this the information that was removed?
I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the
field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the
external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this
has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance.
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry




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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Alternator conversion Reply with quote

At 08:32 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:

<bbradburry(at)allvantage.com>

Bob and others.
I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators
to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the
field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions
seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it.
My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what
are the pros and cons of these modifications?

Excellent question. When one crafts a "curriculum" for instruction
and study, trade offs need to be made for time to develop the
materials to be delivered, how universal are the instructions for
any one task (is there risk that unforeseen variability raises risks
for success), etc.

There HAVE been a number of conversion articles pointed out here
on the list . . . and I've encouraged folks to make their discoveries
of such data known to the rest of us. It's a task I wouldn't mind
doing but there are lots of tasks I don't mind doing and I have perhaps
10% of the time available necessary to take them all on.

Quote:
Is this safe?

If you mean TOTALLY RISK FREE, no. Nothing we do in life is SAFE.
By means of our study and verification by repeatable experiment,
we develop skills that mitigate risk. On top of that, we can craft
systems that are failure tolerant such that the failure of
a "conversion experiment" does not represent intolerable risk.
I.e., having your alternator crap should not cause you to break
a sweat whether or not it's a DIY conversion.
Quote:
If not,
why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question,
so why have you not told us how to do these modifications?

It's all a matter of time . . .

Quote:
I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information
on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were
removed. Is this the information that was removed?

No, I don't think the info was posted on the website but it
was discussed here on the List.

Quote:
I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the
field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the
external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this
has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance.

You can give US some guidance. Get out your camera. Tear into the
thing and take photos. Share your findings as to how power is routed
within the machine and what you've deduced is a means by which you
can get in series with the field power for accomplishment of this
DESIGN GOAL.

We all have opportunities to become teachers here. And all of us
as students have the ability to help teachers refine their presentations.
It's an evolutionary process of discovery, experiment, and perhaps
abandonment of ideas for a better way. Ultimately the process moves
forward to the point where the experiment is repeatable and is ready
for prime time.

Bob . . .


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Alternator conversion Reply with quote

Bill Bradburry wrote:

>>
<bbradburry(at)allvantage.com>
>>
>>Bob and others.
>>I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators
>>to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the
>>field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions
>>seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it.

<snip>
At 09:20 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


Hi Bill

Sure you can do this if you wish and there is nothing wrong with that.
The subject comes up periodically and several folks have posted
suggested methods for some specific alternators. Some look to be easier
to mod than others. There are a couple of companies that offer such units.

I was not particularly interested as it seemed somewhat
counterproductive. You must do the mod and not cause a related problem
by doing so which is probably not too difficult. However it wouldn't be
the first time that a problem was caused just by opening a factory
assembled device. You must purchase and install a separate voltage
regulator which may not be as good as what is already in the alternator
depending on which one you choose. The remote Regulator will not be able
to monitor the alternator's temperature although I guess that is a
pretty minor consideration. You must find a place to put that regulator
and wire it reliably. Most important perhaps, you can no longer purchase
a replacement off the shelf alternator and quickly install it.

In addition I have little concern with using an OV contactor and a few
transorbs on my IR alternator. I'm betting that eventually Bob will
likely confirm that approach with some real testing and actual numbers.
Risks are low either way I think.

Very perceptive sir. Repeatability of results has been a HUGE
factor in my thoughts about mounting a task to craft IR alternator
modification instructions. The folks who make alternators
have refined designs, materials and manufacturing techniques
over decades of experience. While the modifications necessary
for positive external control are tiny, we must craft a
disassembly and re-assembly technique that does not introduce
degrading artifacts produced by lack of knowledge or skill.
Crafting an elegant set of instructions and assuming that a
large majroity of neophyte builders will achieve success is
like tossing a recipe for one of Emeril's prized creations on
the counter and expecting your teenager to achieve exemplar results
first crack out of the flour bin.

My reluctance to embrace the IR alternator has never been
about quality and suitability to the original task (long lived
performance in automobiles). It's always been about how
to incorporate the product into established design goals with
a minimum of risk and expense Obviously, minimum risk occurs when
we install the device as-received into an environment that
will artfully ADAPT it to our design goals.

Some might wonder why we didn't arrive at this juncture several
years ago? What's new?

I cannot speak for others . . . but for myself, the quest for
elegant solutions is an iterative process. It's time consuming
effort that sifts through the simple-ideas looking for the minimum
parts count, minimum risk, minimum cost, maximum performance
solution (Ask Emeril how many times he crafted that dish, or
precursors to it, before he put the first plate in front of
a customer). It takes time and focus . . . I've contemplated
thousands of non-related questions concerning hundreds of
other tasks/goals in the interval between my first regulator
design and the present time.

My first task for aircraft voltage regulation was 25 years
ago and bounded by the goal of crafting an external regulator
compatible with an ER alternator already in place on an airplane
(A-36 Bonanza). A few years later, I reused lessons learned for
an OBAM aircraft alternator wherein B&C had already mastered
disassembly, modification, re-assembly skills for an automotive
adaptation to ER operation.

The technology to do what I see in my head today WAS available
in some form back then. But it was not the task. If anyone
believes B&C set out to master a risky modification to a perfectly good
alternator and then build a companion regulator just to make more
money on their value-added efforts doesn't understand the art
of crafting, manufacturing and marketing hardware.

Had Bill tasked me then to tame the wild IR alternator
for use under contemporary aircraft design goals, I probably
could and would have done it. It's a sure bet that B&C's stable
of products would be VERY different today. Did we make a mistake
then? I don't think so - B&C's line of products have done well.
Is it the wave of the future? Not unless you think we should be
bolting carburetors and cam-driven, diaphragm fuel pumps to our engines.

Today, I see better technology and have new ways to do things that
I've learned over the intervening 25 years. I now KNOW that the solution
is simple, reliable and costs much less than the well-crafted but dated
ideas of yesteryear.

This is not intended to be a critique of anyone's design or marketing
decisions. It's an illustration of cause and effect but with
the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Had B&C launched into an effort
to integrate the IR alternator back then, no doubt much of the
jousting and agitated rhetoric we've endured would not have happened.
Had either A. Hitler -OR- C. Kettering died of SIDS . . . no doubt
the planet's present landscape would be different too.

Hindsight is a great tool especially when used to illuminate
successes/errors
and encourage the discovery and application of simple-ideas in new ways.
I would NOT want to be a fresh graduate today. Folks coming out of
schools have little if ANY historical knowledge of what's gone before
them and their fresh new jobs are agonizingly lacking in mentorship.
Folks who use the Internet as a learning tool have better access to
a broader spectrum of history and technologies than most of our
descendants
are going to receive from schools and shepherds over their budding
careers. Their successes are increasingly dependent on personal
quests and cultivation of widely scattered relationships.
The Internet is an increasingly powerful and necessary tool of
success for just about everybody. We cannot expect our close circle
of teachers and mentors to pick up the slack . . . they cannot teach
that which they do not know (See "The Sovereign Individual" by
Davidson/Reed-Moog).

As a side note. When the Internet is mentioned as a target of
terrorism, a vast majority of our fellow citizens on this planet
think about the loss of access to their down-loaded entertainment.
I shudder to think of returning to a modus-operandi for sharing
of data and cultivation of new ideas that was standard practice
25 years ago. Loss of the coax coming into the back of my house
would bring my career to a halt . . . the recovery mode arduous
to contemplate. Even if recovery were possible, it would be under
comparably miserable circumstances.

As James Burke illustrated in "Connections", stimulation for some
important leaps forward in science have been attributed to diligence of a
few monks who took ideas sent to them, translated into other languages
as necessary and forwarded to individuals in other countries
by the same donkey. What might the world look like today if
da Vinci, Watt, Kettering, Volta, and Coulomb were able to communicate
with their contemporaries as we do today? Conversations on this List
have encouraged the necessary focus on my part to consider the IR
integration problem again. For all its warts and high-blood pressure
discussions, the Internet has again demonstrated value. We live in
interesting and powerfully capable times folks. It's just sad and
maddening that so much $time$ and effort is expended by individuals
to gain advantage over others by equally powerful means that do not
add value for anyone.

Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:19 pm    Post subject: Alternator conversion Reply with quote

Quote:
... It's just sad and
maddening that so much $time$ and effort is expended by individuals
to gain advantage over others by equally powerful means that do not
add value for anyone.

So true. The problem is that these people have not figured
out how to add value, and they feel they must do *something*,
so they suck value from whomever they can.

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
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