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Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

 
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Wow, nice flame job. I had my nomex and asbestos underwear on and still
my short curly hairs got singed. It was more flame than the Space Shuttle
on re-entry.


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BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


"What and where will the next innovations come from?"
I think this is where you are wrong. I'll just mention a few examples that
have absolutely SHAKEN the earth and transformed the entire planet over the
past 50 years:
"Ham Radio"
Many modern communications technologies were invented not by engineers, but
by amateurs, working in their shops, trying to come up with a "better way"
than the status quo. Spread spectrum, television, packet radio, and many
other examples exist. Howard Hughes was a ham. So was Robert
Goddard. Both of them were ridiculed for trying to find "a better way"
that was not in keeping with the present-day engineer mindset.
"Bill Gates"
Never graduated. Do we need to mention what he accomplished?
"Steve Jobs".
Do we need to mention what he created in his garage while HP was ridiculing
him for not being an "Engineer"?
Where are all these engineers when it comes to creating OBAM electrical
systems that are fault-tolerant? I don't remember seeing one single one of
them standing up in an EAA meeting to show us a better way. It's the
self-taught guy who has no "old school" to hide behind, the guy who is
thought of as "a bit crazy" who ends up being right all along. A thankless
job, taking all those arrows.
"There is tremendous unease in the "American soul" over the worth of the
dreamer/visionary.
We simultaneously romanticize these peculiar men and women, profit from
them, try to starve them out, and kill them off. It is as if investors,
distrustful of their own ability to tell the difference between an American
dream and an American Pipe Dream, hedge their bets by holding visionaries
to budgets and time lines that are just short of adequate."
- Fred Moody, "The Visionary Position"
Dave Morris
At 11:24 PM 1/3/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
What and where will the next innovations come from? ENGINEERS.
Chance is it will not be a kid from a Votech school that knows the bench as
Bob says. OK. Not a put down just a fact. We need to admire the academic
achievement and not scorn and ridicule it. I find the people who do this are
ones who could not cut it in school or are just plan ignorant. Not everyone
can be a self made man like Bob, no doubt he is much smarter than I am and
most Engineers or manager at Raytheon.


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Richard(at)RILEY.NET
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


At 07:28 AM 1/4/06, Dave Morris \"BigD\"" , wrote:
Quote:
"What and where will the next innovations come from?"
I think this is where you are wrong. I'll just mention a few examples that
have absolutely SHAKEN the earth and transformed the entire planet over the
past 50 years:
"Ham Radio"
Many modern communications technologies were invented not by engineers, but
by amateurs, working in their shops, trying to come up with a "better way"
than the status quo. Spread spectrum...

Invented by Hedy Lamar - actress.
--


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Ahh..I see my fellow PE's frustration (of course being British I am A
Ceng and not a PE even though I work in the US). In the UK literally
everyone is an Engineer...maintain a photocopier..and you have the title
Engineer...its very frustrating when your relatives ask you if you "work
on cars?"
One of the reasons I came here in fact. George's point is a good one
when he mentions the working relationships between engineers and
technicians....We are nothing without them, indeed it is a very rare
engineer that anything more than the mechanical dexterity of a gorrilla,
and most of my professional colleages are chained safely to their
computers lest they foul something up in the real world.
I like to think I'm different..."Your building a PLANE?" my bispeckled
colleagues ask, like its akin to brain surgery or something.
OH well...back to my finite element analysis..Smile
Frank
Do not archive


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kayce33(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Dear George,
I do believe this forum is for helping, learning, passing info about
mistakes one may have made and also info about success in a particular
venture. I don't care if the individual has an alphabet soup after his name,
how much money he's made consulting, or how much disdain he has for the
uneducated such as I, and possibly a few others...and in particular Bob (
who I've never met but respect ). Why not give us something constructive as
so many others have, instead of satisfying your excessive pride in your
degrees and fragile ego by putting down someone who's doing a worthwhile
service for the homebuilt community. Next time you write, why not try
showing us a new, novel better way of doing something. Just for the heck of
it...look at Bill Gates, no degree and he's not the only successful person
without a degree, probably as many of them as there are PE's.
Nuff said
Harold....HS graduate


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sportav8r(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Dear George,


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SSampson.SLN21(at)london.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take
their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.
GMC has a point!


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kellym(at)aviating.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


I'd say you have that analogy backwards. Would you expect a surgeon to
extract your filet mignon from the beef carcass? Would he even know where
to begin or the right tools for the job?
Steve Sampson said:
<SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take
their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.
GMC has a point!


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BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


You're saying you don't think you could cut a side of beef to make
hamburgers, even without 7 years of schooling? We're building airplanes,
not doing neurosurgery. Smile
Dave
At 01:47 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote:
<SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take
their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.
GMC has a point!


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Dave Morris "BigD" a crit :
You're saying you don't think you could cut a side of beef to make
hamburgers, even without 7 years of schooling?

Hmm, I'd rather have filet mignon than hamburger...
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr

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terry(at)tcwatson.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Steve, if I understand your point, I think you have it exactly backwards.
The more appropriate use of your analogy is asking why you would hire a
surgeon to cut your steaks. He may know how to take you appendix out, but
why would that make him better at making hamburger?
As you sometimes hear from Vans, it's only an airplane. Have confidence
enough in yourself to judge who knows what they are talking about and who
doesn't. A degree or a license means that someone may have done some study,
filled out some forms, paid a fee and maybe passed some tests. If they were
all about wiring little airplanes, then maybe they mean something in this
context. Maybe not.
I don't think GMC has a point, but maybe I missed yours.
Terry
Degreed in one profession, licensed in another - neither has anything to do
with airplanes
Do not archive


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kayce33(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


And then there's the PHD in Nuclear Physics who can't change out his own
faulty electric wall outlet and calls a neighbor to help. Great
theoretically, but cannot put his ideas into practice, ho hum.
Harold


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mprather(at)spro.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Hi Terry,
I think Steve was assuming that GMC was talking about challenging tasks in
general, maybe more challenging than wiring-up an airplane. And that it's
desireable to find someone qualified to do the job, especially when the
stakes are high. And that formal education, and training (and hence
tickets-punched, degrees received) has some value towards indicating that
qualification.
My only problem with this line of thinking is that there are lots of ways
to get degrees and certificates (just like there are lots of ways to get
educated). The degrees and certificates are only a suggestion that
someone might be educated, and might have enhanced abilities and training.
They don't necessarily actually prove much, though I am not saying they
are worthless.
I got a BSEE from a small state run school, which thankfully wasn't a
degree factory. When I started my first job after graduation, I found
that, compared to my peers, I was pretty well prepared to actually start
working as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. Many EE's are
nearly useless when they are fresh out of school - didn't learn much that
was applicable to anything. And yet, you can't tell their pigskin from
mine.
The analogy was about doctors (surgeons). I'll just say this: There are
lots of "qualified" docs that I wouldn't let work on me, much less carve
my meat. The "qualification" is only one indication of competence.
Regards,
Matt-
<terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Steve, if I understand your point, I think you have it exactly
backwards. The more appropriate use of your analogy is asking why you
would hire a surgeon to cut your steaks. He may know how to take you
appendix out, but why would that make him better at making hamburger?
As you sometimes hear from Vans, it's only an airplane. Have confidence
enough in yourself to judge who knows what they are talking about and
who doesn't. A degree or a license means that someone may have done some
study, filled out some forms, paid a fee and maybe passed some tests. If
they were all about wiring little airplanes, then maybe they mean
something in this context. Maybe not.
I don't think GMC has a point, but maybe I missed yours.
Terry
Degreed in one profession, licensed in another - neither has anything to
do with airplanes
Do not archive


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Steve Sampson wrote:


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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
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I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
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sarg314(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


I have to chime in here and say that in my 20-odd years in the computer
design business (I'm a software guy) the very best engineers I have ever
worked with did not have degrees. They were self taught. They started
tinkering when they were kids and when they got to college the
engineering curriculum put them to sleep. They were already doing
engineering for pay on the side so they just dropped out and got to work.
--
Tom Sargent


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schmoboy(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Can we end this thread anytime soon?
I we must go on, can we add DO NOT ARCHIVE so as not to clog up the
archives.
Much appreciated..
-Sean RV-10 #40303
Brian Lloyd wrote:
Steve Sampson wrote:


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bnn(at)nethere.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


At 06:51 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
I have to chime in here and say that in my 20-odd years in the computer
design business (I'm a software guy) the very best engineers I have ever
worked with did not have degrees.

I guess it depends on what you're doing. I've never met anyone who
could design advanced structures without some engineering education. I've
met a lot of "seat-of-the-pants" designers, some of whom were pretty good,
but none could compare to someone who really knew the math.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive


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khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


Quote:
I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take

their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.
Good point Steve, only a lot of Doctors are Butchers, believe me.
Problem is , how do we tell the difference ?
Likewise, not all Engineers are created equal ! How do we tell the
difference ?
I don't know the answers to either, but what I do know is that Bob
Nuckolls does a hell of a lot for very ordinary people like myself out
of the goodness of his heart. For all I know, gmcjetpilot may be an
exceptionally brilliant Engineer and I hope he is, but would he be
prepared to do what Bob does for little or no reward to help those like
myself when he can earn $150K for a job and then laugh all the way to
the bank as quoted by himself ?
Do not archive
Over and Out
Kingsley


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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote


A handicap that degreed Engineers, who are without real world
experience, struggle under is contamination by association. All of
those years getting a degree were spent rubbing shoulders with teachers.
And, as they say "those that can, do, those that can't, teach."
This is not to denigrate either Engineers or teachers.....just a warning
of a systemic problem that is best cured with real world experience,
before or after the degree.
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive


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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech Reply with quote



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