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Electronics info needed

 
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RLNelson-5(at)peoplepc.co
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject: Electronics info needed Reply with quote

Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.

I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.

The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.

The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.

The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
and leave the pump running.

So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .

Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .

Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,

Pump starts to pump.

Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]

The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.

Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
reset the switch to start over.

This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps

I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.

I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N


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RLNelson-5(at)peoplepc.co
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Electronics info needed Reply with quote

Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.

I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.

The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.

The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.

The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
and leave the pump running.

So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .

Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .

Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,

Pump starts to pump.

Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]

The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.

Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
reset the switch to start over.

This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps

I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.

I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N


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ron(at)voyagertravel.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Electronics info needed Reply with quote

I also have a 56 Tri-Pacer. The push pull switch is connected to a cable
that operates a valve. This valve prevents the fuel in the wing tank from
flowing to the aux. tank when the pump is off. If this valve is not closed
and the pump is off I have seen fuel come out the Aux. fuel cap.
Does your plane still have this mechanical valve?

Ron Russell
At 08:53 AM 2/10/2006, you wrote:
Quote:

<RLNelson-5(at)peoplepc.com>

Hello to all. New to this list. I need some electronics type people to help
on this one.
I am redoing a 1956 Piper Tri-pacer panel.

I have the reserve fuel option. This option has a 8 gallon tank under the
rear seat. This 8 gal tank feeds a small Facet 12v 30 gph pump, which feeds
into the Rh rear wing tank fuel line.

The pump is actuated by a very antique type push pull switch that no longer
works. It is no longer available . So I am free to come up with a
alternate/equivalent type switch.

The specs say to run this pump for 25 to 30 min after the Rh main tank is
empty and fuel valve switched to the left tank.

The 1st problem is the switch is inop as above.
The 2nd problem is that it is very easy to forget about the Res. Fuel switch
and leave the pump running.

So I would like the new switch setup to do the following .

Replace old inop switch with Regular Toggle Switch .

Add Indicator light [ Res. Fuel, yellow] on dash that goes on ,

Pump starts to pump.

Add some sort of electronic timer attached to switch starts . After 25-30
min the timer will shut off the pump . [I have replaced the fuel lines for
this pump and have changed the -3 fuel line to a -4 line so it would be
nice to have a time adjustment if the pump empty's out the tank faster.]

The [Res. Fuel yellow] indicator light turns off and pump turns off.

Res fuel switch auto returns to off or sort of half off where you have to
reset the switch to start over.

This pump does not draw a lot of amps 1-3 amps

I am ok with electronics and following a schematic and wiring it.

I am a A+P and am working on my own plane.
Thanks
Randy N



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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Electronics info needed Reply with quote

So Facet pumps can now be used on certified aircraft?....Geee guess us
experimental drivers are not so far out of line cus we've been using
them for years!..Smile

The easiest option I see is a simple on/off switch ($2 from our local Bi
mart..Knects stock them too I think they are Neilhoff brand or
something....I been using a panel full of these for 6 years never had
one go bad) and a LED potted for 12V (or do you run 24V?...In which case
just plumb a resistor in line) to show you when you have the pump on.

If the wing tank is bigger than your res tank just empty it and dump it
all in there at once.

There is a fuel pump minder cuircuit that will switch it off when it
detects the electrical load has gone away...i.e when the res tank is
empty...More functionality than I need however.

Cheers

Frank

--


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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Electronics info needed Reply with quote

Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>

<<So Facet pumps can now be used on certified aircraft?....Geee guess us
experimental drivers are not so far out of line cus we've been using
them for years!..Smile......skip.........>>

2/11/2006

Hello Frank, In discussing / evaluating fuel pumps one must distinguish
between pumps being used to supply fuel to an operating engine and those
being used to transfer fuel from one tank to another.

Engine driven mechanical fuel pumps are almost invariably used to supply
fuel to an operating engine and would be sized and pressure speced
appropriately.**

Electrically driven fuel pumps (commonly, and sometimes erroneously, called
fuel "boost pumps") can be used to:

1) Provide priming fuel flow prior to engine start.

2) Provide a head source to the inlet of the engine driven fuel pump to
reduce / eliminate the possibility of cavitation in the inlet of the engine
driven fuel pump while the engine is operating.

3) Provide an actual flow of fuel sufficient to operate the engine if the
mechanically driven fuel pump has failed.

4) Transfer fuel from one fuel tank to another.

I am too lazy to research the pre FAR Part 23 requirements for fuel pumps,
but I would bet that the flow requirements for fuel transfer pumps back then
were less than the flow requirements for engine operating pumps just as is
the case in Part 23.955 today. That may be why the Facet pump was acceptable
as a fuel transfer pump back then.

In recent application the type certificated Diamond DA-20 C1 airplane,
powered with the TCM IO-240 B3B engine, initially had a Facet fuel pump
installed for the purpose of priming that fuel injected engine prior to
starting. No transfer activity was involved since the plane had only one
main fuel tank.

The DA-20 C1 POH specifically said that the Facet pump was not intended to
keep the engine operating in case of failure of the engine driven pump, but
the emergency procedures still called for turning the Facet pump on in case
of engine driven pump failure. There was considerable speculation about
whether there would be enough power from the engine to keep the airplane
airborne with the engine driven pump inoperative and only the Facet pump
providing fuel flow. Conducting such a test while airborne would be a little
tricky since it would require failing the engine driven pump in some manner,
but still allowing the Facet pump provided fuel to flow through the engine
driven pump housing to get to the engine.

The electrically driven fuel pump in that airplane has evolved through
several iterations and is now a two stage Dukes turbine pump.

It is pretty important for a pilot to understand his fuel "boost pump"
operation. Some fuel boost pumps are turned on as a matter of procedure
during all take offs and landings as a precautionary measure in case the
engine driven pump should fail. Other fuel boost pumps must not be turned on
while airborne while the engine driven fuel pump is operating normally
because the added flow from the boost pump can drown the engine and result
in insufficient power for flight.

OC

**PS: For example the engine driven fuel pump for a fuel injected Lycoming
engine puts out a higher pressure than the engine driven fuel pump for that
same engine if it is equipped with a carburetor.

PPS: The A-7 aircraft had a complicated fuel transfer system that routed
excess fuel pumped by the engine driven pump through the fuel tanks in
shaped nozzles that created motive fuel flow for transfer purposes. I think
that we lost a few of those planes because of fuel management problems until
pilots learned of the gotchas created by that system.


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